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Ever feel like you’re the only one in your marriage who wants to have sex?
In most marriages, there is typically one partner with a higher sex drive—and that person is usually trying to convince the other to have more sex. In this episode, Juli and Dr. Corey Allan talk about how to move beyond “I have a need, and you have an obligation” to real sexual intimacy.
Juli (00:00.494)
Welcome to Java with Juli. I am Juli Slattery and I’m really glad that you’re here. This podcast is an outreach of Authentic Intimacy, a ministry dedicated to helping people make sense of God and sexuality. Well, you know, in a lot of marriages, there’s a hidden dynamic around sex that no one really talks about. And this happens when one spouse wants sex and the other one doesn’t, or maybe doesn’t want it as often.
Sometimes it’s the wife who wants sex more often. I think stereotypically it’s the husband, but it can go either way. In either case, they have a mismatched sexual desire and that comes with pressure and even some unspoken expectations that can chip away at real intimacy in their marriage. My guest today is Dr. Corey Allan from Sexy Marriage Radio, and in this episode we’re going to dig into why that mismatched desire often gets framed as I have a need and so you have an obligation. And why that kind of mindset is going to leave you both feeling really frustrated and unsatisfied.
Juli
So we’re going to explore how to bring what’s actually happening beneath the surface out into the open in your marriage. What Dr. Allan calls, “making the covert overt”. Now I want to warn you, Dr. Allan speaks really frankly through our conversation and I appreciate that. He said it well: there is so much hurt and confusion around issues of sexuality. In order to cut through all that noise, we just have to be frank.
So many of you completed our survey and by the way, thank you. It was great to see your responses. And here’s what we found. Mismatched sexual desire is at the very top of the list of the things that you said that you’re struggling with the most and the thing that you want us to be talking about. So you are not alone. And if this conversation is helpful or interesting to you, would you share it with a friend or leave us a rating and review in the podcast app? Those are both really good ways to help us get these conversations to more people who can benefit from them. Alright, let’s head to the coffee shop for this conversation with my guest, Dr. Corey Allan.
Juli (02:13.944)
So Corey, you and I have a lot in common. Yes. We’re both passionate about helping the church talk about sex, which isn’t an easy thing.
Corey
And hasn’t been done historically very well.
Juli
Yeah, so our listeners know a little bit about my journey into why I became passionate about that topic, but how about you?
Corey
Okay, so largely it probably stems from our experience in my marriage of being raised. mean, the funny side of this, I kind of term it as I was born in the church because I was raised by a father that was a minister and a mother who worked as a secretary in the church. So I think literally the delivery was maybe in the church. But it’s that element of the church in my upbringing was a whole lot of the unspoken, don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it. And then when you say “I do”, now the whole world of sex and sexuality is supposed to be open to you. And you just can’t flip that switch that quickly.
Juli (03:16.5)
So now I hear that a lot from women. I don’t very often hear it from men other than my wife doesn’t know how to flip the switch. But do men struggle with that as well?
Corey
Okay, so for mine, it’s not flipping the switch of desire or interest, which I’m kind of guessing, postulating that for women it can be that element of I’ve been squashed it down so much that I don’t even know if I’m sexual, right, or how I’m supposed to respond. For me, it was how do I steer it in better ways? How do I cultivate it and see it as it’s actually something sacred? I pull from John Eldridge’s work sometimes how we try to squash desire under the name of sanctification, rather than realizing you can’t squash desire, I needed to steer it better. So for me, my personal experience was going into that aspect of my marriage with my wife and my life as sexuality was how do I steer it, foster it, treat it with respect, and not let it veer off into the world of pornography and lust and all the other things that can so easily ensnare, which was also part of my journey; dealing with that.
And so it’s seeing that for me, was, you you think it’s going to be easy because it’s romanticized in society and then you realize when you get into it sex is difficult. You know, it’s hard to be on the same page. It’s hard for it not to be awkward. hard, you know, some things don’t work like you thought they would. It wasn’t as free flowing and simple and maybe there’s, so I immediately kind of think maybe there’s something wrong rather than, no, I think there’s actually, that’s kind of a design, right? This isn’t supposed to just be simple, until I grow up a little bit and how I deal with it and how I deal with me.
Juli (05:05.486)
Mm-hmm. So a lot of people can identify with what you’ve shared so far in terms of getting married, having struggles, feeling like there aren’t any or many resources talking about how do I think through this. Right. But not many people take the step of saying, well, I want to talk about sex and I want to have a radio show that talks about sex.
Corey
Okay, so this was, so I’m a marriage family therapist by training and the seminal moment for me was, actually it was a Thursday evening. I had four clients in my office, just back-to-back the entire evening and all of them were in various states of major crisis. And on that night, three of the four chose to end their relationship in my office. And so I come home and I don’t think I was the cause of that. I think I might’ve just been a mechanism to help be honest about some of the stuff that’s really been going on for a while.
And I came home to Pam and I said, this is, I didn’t sign up for, this is rough, right? I don’t like this. And so that kind of then led to a conversation and more thought processes of how do you reach people before there’s problems, right? And so that’s when I started blogging and learned everything I could about blogging, started Simple Marriage.
And then from there, recognized any time I wrote an article or anything about that hinted at or was in depth and upfront about sex, all kinds of comments and influx of interaction would happen, which then led to, we need to talk about this. And so I didn’t want to be a solo dude talking about sex. And at that point, being married to a CPA, she was not willing to be on the air with me.
And so I found a colleague I had collaborated with in the blogging world that she was a sexuality coach. So she came on board and we launched Sexy Marriage Radio eight years ago. And it’s just been going weekly ever since that we try to frame conversations to help people start in their relationship to get to the deeper levels of what they hope and can taste in that aspect of their life.
Juli (07:13.006)
So eight years, what are you seeing that has been consistent over the last eight years and what are you seeing that’s new?
Corey
Well, so let’s start with the new first. Because what’s consistent, I think you probably have the same kind of thing and an insight from your audience. The new is there is a little bit of a difference on the way couples will justify and rationalize choices that are just going to be fraught with danger opening up a marriage.
Juli
For example?
Corey
You know, our audience is going to be largely, they would label themselves in the Christian umbrella. But there’s still some that, the rational brain can just, you we can talk ourselves into anything if you think about it. And so trying to align that with just the moral side of, hold on, there’s a design that God had in mind. There’s something intentional and sacred about this. And so that’s been something that’s a trend just recently that I hadn’t seen before, because people are opening up and having those conversations with us about what they’re struggling with and what they’re thinking about. So I’m glad to have the conversations, right? Because I want them to have a safe place to, let’s explore this together.
What hasn’t changed is there’s a higher desire and there’s a lower desire in every marriage when it comes to sex in every topic in my mind. And what has not changed is the higher desire is constantly trying to figure out ways to get the lower desire to have more sex.
Juli
And I noticed that you didn’t assign gender to that.
Corey (08:51.586)
Well, it’s because it’s not a gender-specific thing.
Juli
But very often it’s treated.
Corey
I stereotype that way. And we do it too on our show. We’ll stereotype it just for simplicity to be able to talk male, female, even though we have to always add the caveat of this is not everybody. Because I can think off the top of my head, multiple members of our audience and our academy and the memberships that we have where it’s reversed. The woman is the higher desire.
Juli
Yeah, and it seems that we’ve seen an increase in women with a higher desire and men with very low desire.
Corey
Yeah.
Juli
Is this something that you’ve noticed?
Corey
Yeah, I don’t know if it’s necessarily, I don’t know if I’d say it’s an increase. I think maybe now it’s finally a little more appropriate to talk about it or less taboo on the way it feels to talk about it because there is, you know, being raised as a male, there is the bravado of, boy, you better have a high drive. And that’s not ever a spoken thing. It’s just kind of a, if I’m going to fit in with my people, better, I better be that way.
Juli (09:55.464)
So let’s talk about that because I don’t think most women are aware of that. Women think about sex with their husband as it’s all about pleasing each other, it’s all about needs, and I think sex is often stereotyped for men as a purely physical thing. It’s a need, it’s a desire, but what you’re hinting at is there’s a lot of pressure that even comes from society that enters into the bedroom and how a guy thinks about sex.
Corey
Sure, and I think, I mean, in some regards, our culture and even the church has made the sexual dynamic a patriarchal thing where it is geared towards the guy. And that’s really fraught with all kinds of destructive possibilities because then you’re starting to talk about it’s just obligatory. It’s all about his need. It’s all about satisfying him.
And then when you add society’s level to it of the pressure that I think men sexualize things that don’t need to be sexualized, stress, struggle, pain, you know, and it’s really easy to, well, I’ll just go have sex and that’ll boost my validity and my identity a little bit. And if I do that enough, or if I’ve done that as an adolescent and a young adult, or maybe maybe still in continuing into my adulthood, if I’ve done that enough with pornography and masturbation, I’ve sexualized things that I’m trying to medicate for, rather than grief needs to be dealt with with grief.
Stress needs to be dealt with with healthier ways to release stress. Not that sex can’t be a component of that, but I can’t steer it that way. And so I think a lot of times men, we can get caught up in, if I don’t feel good about me or I’m uncertain, then I want my wife to help me to do that.
Corey (11:43.98)
And so one of ways she can do that is to, I this is one of the phrases I use from Dr. Schnarsh, is it puts a wife in a predicament of she can either prop up my ego or my penis. She can’t do both.
Juli
Wow. Talk more about that.
Corey
Well, that’s the whole idea of if I’m trying to get my validation out of my sexual identity and my conquest and my abilities, then I put my wife in the element of having to prop that up, which means she’s not just having sex with me. She’s doing it to the lowest common denominator to try to keep me from being angry or pouty or frustrated or treating her poorly. And now that just is the entire different way to look at sex in my mind through the lens of, is the sex I’m having worth wanting? Is what I’m seeking from my wife as a husband as the higher desire? Because in my marriage, I’m the higher desire. So is the sex I’m seeking, is it worth having? Am i worth having it with?
Juli (12:44.94)
What makes it worth having and what makes you worth it?
Corey
Oh, that’s as varied as each individual, but it’s one of those things where am I going after something because there’s a covertness to it? I mean, because it’s if you’ve been married long enough, you know the times where this was one-sided sex. Yeah. Right. It kind of has its own flavor and taste and staleness even. But it gets the job done. And that serves a role in marriage. But if I can make it much more overt on hey, and I’ve actually said this to my wife, you interested in some one-sided sex tonight? Because she knows it’s, I’m not looking for a whole big ordeal. I’m just looking for you to satisfy me a little bit.
Juli
And, is that a good thing?
Corey
Well, if that’s all I’m doing, no. But there are times where there’s.
Juli (13:34.2)
I mean that’s pretty unromantic.
Corey
Absolutely it is. I’m not saying that romance, this is just a functional level of sex as a language.
Juli (13:41.806)
Yeah, and I appreciate you bringing this to the surface, but I think women feel that and probably men feel that at times, but like you’re saying, it’s not overtly stated.
Corey
Right, most of the time that is a covert thing that has unfolded.
Juli
Kind of manipulative?
Corey
It is completely manipulative and sometimes even the higher desire isn’t even aware that that’s what they’re seeking and then when they don’t get it they blame the lower desire. But in reality the lower desire could have better views of the fact that the sex they’re having isn’t even really worth wanting. Because it’s just, you know, in some instances you could actually satisfy that without you.
Corey (14:19.758)
You can take care of that and even release on your own.
Juli
Which is what a lot of people are doing. Which isn’t good either.
Corey
No, mean, you go, this is the world of extremes, right? If we go to one stream or the other, we got problems.
Juli
So I feel like we’re going down the rabbit hole and I’m going to keep going down it.
Corey
Let’s go.
Juli
It’s important. So you stated that if we were to be just clear about our intentions, we would say something as overt as, are you interested in one side of sex?
Corey
The line I use most with her is actually, are you interested in some medium to mediocre level sex? Yeah. Because that’s kind of a little more, this is just functional.
Juli (14:53.75)
Your wife is here laughing. laughing. And my husband’s here laughing too.
Corey
But she’s one of those because then you’re not talking about, because think about it, don’t we, we come into relationship and we for sure come into married life. And if you grew up in a Christian household where there was this paradise kind of expected when it comes to your sex life, you know, I’ve done it right all the way up to this point. And now I want to taste paradise with my sex life. And most people equate that to, I guess the easiest descriptor of it is vacation sex; where you’re both stress free, you’re engaged, it’s fun, there’s some adventure to it, there’s some novelty even maybe, but it’s where you’re both are involved. A lot of times, you can’t sustain that when you’re doing day to day life. You just get, you got kids, you got work, you got bills, you got stress, parents, you know, all the different things that go on that there’s times where I’m just not gonna have the energy for that kind of level of production, right?
And so, being able to recognize what am I really trying to seek with this encounter? That’s better intimacy to me.
Juli
And there’s a difference between, again, I don’t know if I’d ever use these terms, but are you interested in mediocre sex? There’s a difference between that and one-sided.
Corey
True.
Juli
Because for a couple to say, we don’t have the time, the capacity, the energy for the vacation sex.
Corey
Right.
Juli
But this is important. It’s an important way for us to connect. Right. That is different than what you’re describing, which I think is happening in a lot of marriages, where it is all about, have a need. And you have the obligation to meet that need.
Corey
Because you said I do, so that means do.
Juli
And the Bible says it’s your duty, which I hear all the time from emails and…
Corey (16:41.248)
Oh but see, that’s the thing coming out from the man’s side of it, too. Let me just kind of speak to that. There’s this element of the abuse of scripture for the power play to get what we want that’s not necessarily virtuous or coming from goodness. Right. Right. That’s coming from Lois common denominator, meet this need. That’s not coming from a spilling over of selflessness and giving and compassion and love.
Juli
So what I want to get to to help people identify this is if they’re not as honest as you are, what are the manipulative ways that a man or a woman will essentially say, you owe this to me, we need to do this to meet my need?
Corey
Hmm. It’s a great question because they’re probably going to be as unique as each person’s communication pattern. Because I also put it just to kind of add a caveat to help frame the conversation. I look at one of the phrases I use with clients and when I get a chance to speak is, we’re always having sex is one way to think about it.
Juli
You’re going to have to explain that.
Corey
In marriage, what separates my relationship with my wife from every other one is that aspect alone. I have sex with her and no one else. That’s the beauty and the sacredness of that bond. So to steal a phrase from Esther Perel, she has the comment of foreplay starts after orgasm, because you’re setting up the next one.
Juli (18:09.614)
So in other words, we’re always being sexual with each other.
Corey
So there’s an interplay of that dynamic somewhere interwoven. Sometimes it’s not above the surface in notice, but there is an element of married life that if I don’t treat my wife well just out of goodness in who I am, how am I inviting that to happen in my marriage rather than what most marriages do is they live parallel lives and then when one of them is interested, they all of sudden turn on the charm or they turn on the chore play or they turn on the different things, thinking, well, that’ll get her interested. And lo and behold, it’s not even on her radar. And I used to take it offense to that, where I would be suggestive and she’s like, I wasn’t even thinking about that. like, how could you not? But that’s just our different wiring. This is stereotypical, but I think most women are wired to be responsive. It’s not a innate libido of they’re just are constantly thinking about sex because they don’t have the testosterone level that men, most men do.
And so, there’s an element of just look at the patterns of how you make sex happen in your marriage. And this is an interesting for both listeners, male and female, of how do I know when it’s coming from goodness and true what it can be versus I’m just looking to get an itch scratched? Because if you start looking for themes, we always are communicating. And the more I can start to see that, how do I just bring that out in the open a little bit more? Because that’s going to be disruptive, but it also opens the door to making the covert more overt.
Juli (19:43.246)
So you’ve explained it in a way that a therapist can understand.
Corey
Oh, here we go.
Juli
Okay. So let’s break this down because what you said is really profound. Okay. That there’s always these interpersonal dynamics going on between a husband and wife around sexuality, around sex. Yep. And we don’t bring that up. No. In terms of really talking about what’s happening.
Corey
Right.
Juli (20:09.718)
And so a couple can be married for 15, 20 years, and have this drama playing out again and again and again and never name it. So where do we even start naming it? And you said it’s going to be disruptive, which means it’s going to create tension, potentially a conflict. Where do we start with that?
Corey
Well, first off, the conflict’s already there. It’s just become this known thing, right? So being able to be a little more articulate about it gives empowering for both parties to, the way I’d term it, play both roles better. Because this is not about how do I convince my wife to have more sex. If I could figure that out, that’d be awesome. But I just can’t. There’s no possible way.
I can figure out ways to create better environments or be more inviting and then I put the pressure on her to say yes or no or to be engaged or not. And so a lot of it is just how do you start to see the dynamic of the role you play, because I guess to ask your listeners ask themselves this. One, how does sex happen in my marriage when it happens?
Juli
This is a good conversation to have?
Corey
No, this is just for yourself at this point. How does this happen? Right? What’s my role in helping it happen? Or the flip side of that is how is sex avoided in my marriage? Because we all play roles in avoiding it. Because that can be the whole, your spouse is really interested and he’s sending the signals and you’re doing everything. You see him, but you just blow right on past him. But you saw him. You know, logically you said, I know what he’s interested in.
Corey (21:45.142)
Rather than in that moment, what if you said, am I reading you right? You totally disrupt the cycle then. Are you interested in little sex?
Juli
And he says, I’m interested in a lot.
Corey
Perfect, well I can handle maybe one right now. But it’s it’s both of you being more engaged in the dynamic on playing your role rather than trying to play both sides, because that’s what wears everybody out.
Juli
So it’s really a matter of just stating what we’re feeling. Of stating the obvious. doesn’t have to be a fight. It can just be naming what’s happening.
Corey
Right, because in married life, you already know if your partner is the higher desire for sex, you already know they’re interested.
Juli (22:22.818)
Let me ask you a question. Do you think that a person potentially could be low desire in one marriage because they’re married to a high desire person? And if they had been married to someone else, maybe they’d be higher desire.
Corey
Absolutely, yeah, because I think those are just points on a continuum to me there neither one is right or wrong
Juli
But also I think we get in a pattern when you learn to either be pursuing because you don’t think you’re going to get it or you learn to be like kind of stonewalling because it’s too much.
Corey
And then there can even be a switch of that in the same relationship where something happens with the biology of somebody. As a man ages and his testosterone typically can go down or he starts working out less or he does some of the different things or just stress. That’s the biggest killer for libido for men is stress. And that’s why masturbation becomes so prominent because there’s less, there’s no rejection with pornography and masturbation. There is rejection if I bring it to my wife.
Juli
Okay, so let’s talk about that for a few minutes. You bring up this word rejection. Yep. And that’s a big thing for men or women. Yes. And for the high desire person, that’s a real fear of if I initiate again, will I be rejected? But we also talked earlier about how it’s not a good idea just to respond because that person needs it.
Corey
Right.
Juli (23:47.532)
So what’s the answer then? If let’s say, for example, a woman doesn’t want to reject her husband. But she also doesn’t want to just say, well, this is my duty. How do you resolve that?
Corey
So from the woman’s side?
Juli
Or the man’s we can talk about it.
Corey
Let’s do both. we’ll put them in the, for the sake of this conversation, the woman is lower desire. Okay. Okay. So in that case, a woman is caught because both higher desire and lower desire have a burden on them. Neither one is better and neither one is without pressure or without the fear of rejection.
Corey (24:25.422)
So the lower desire wife in this instance, she can get into, needs to start asking herself more of the questions of, what’s my history with this? Because for a lot of wives, and I don’t know if your audience fits this or if you fit this too, kind of, you’re getting personal with me, I’m gonna come back at you, Ms. Juli.
Juli
Please do, yep.
Corey
I may not be interested in it, but once I get going, I am, right? All of sudden I realize, I do like this. Yes. This is good. And so even just bringing that to bear, and this is one of the things that shifted for Pam and I, was when sex, and this was early on when we were trying to just, I was trying to be much more honest about what I was seeking and what was going on. And she responded in kind with, I would interest her, hey, you’re interested in some sex tonight? And she would be, no, but I could be. And that’s a whole different shift rather than no.
Juli
Yeah, or even know not right now, but how about tomorrow morning?
Corey
And so adding those little things shifts the whole interplay between us to where it then puts the pressure on both of our shoulders to play our role better, to be engaged better. And so for a wife, I think if she recognizes this is something I like, this is something I enjoy, and I like playing that role for my husband too, that’s like the win-win in a sense. And if it’s not, well then are you willing to take the next courageous step to try to figure out if I’m just doing this for him and it’s nothing for me, I’m really not doing anything for either of us then? Because I come after men a lot in my audience on as the higher desire that when you settle for crumbs with what’s being given out on the least bit of, know, what’s the littlest I have to do in this instance, then that’s what’s going to continue to happen. most men will say that as well, but at least it’s sex. Yeah, but it’s lousy sex.
Corey (26:21.354)
So how do you take the courage of is this even worth wanting and am I willing to go without to see, both of us shift in how we approach this to create something new and different, or do we continue the pattern we’ve had?
Juli
When you say go without, a lot of people like their ears perked up because the assumption in marriage is you should never have to go without. Sure. And I’ve talked to both men and women who are on the verge of divorce for no other reason than I’m not getting enough sex. Right. Like we communicate well, I love my spouse, we love our kids, but this is a key part of marriage and it’s not happening, so God would want me to get divorced.
Corey
Ha ha ha! No. I don’t like that last little addendum of God.
Juli (27:12.686)
I know, but you said we justify it.
Corey
But yeah, that’s the rationalization hamster wheel…
Juli
The assumption underneath is that if sex is not happening or even good sex or frequent sex is not happening, then the marriage is null and void. I mean, people are making that assumption. I get you. And to say, are you willing to go without, whether it be for days or in the case of…
Corey (27:38.606)
And I’m not necessarily saying that’s the move that’s like, you know, like, fine, I’ll sit back and pout and treat you poorly to make you know how stalwart I am. And that’s not inviting. But coming at it from a standpoint of, look, I’m looking at our dynamic. Because let’s just, I don’t know how we haven’t come up to this point already, but look at it this way. There’s a functional level of sex, and then there’s a level of sex of having sex with the person that that genitalia is attached to. And I think if we really talk about what we want, I want the person I’m with, not just their genitals.
Juli
So like I talk about it, the difference between sexual activity and sexual intimacy.
Corey
Okay, that’s great framework right there. That being able to see it as this is not just about reaching an orgasm or ejaculating or whatever it is. This is about tasting the essence of another person too and them experiencing me. That that moves you from the functional level or the activity to something so much deeper.
Juli
And that’s where we want to get people to even know it’s possible.
Corey (28:45.582)
Absolutely, and I think that’s where we get glimpses of it. We maybe have revisionist history memories of it from when we were first married, and it seemed like it was so easy and so great. And then you realize, wow, there’s so much more because I am so much more. And that’s where most, I mean, the research I’ve come across that talks about the real depth of connection and intimacy, you’re talking well into married life because you’re talking about well into your own development as a human being.
Juli
Absolutely. And that’s, think, where we have a lot of common ground in what we’re passionate about is the marriage is just the beginning. And the church has presented it as the finish line in terms of sexuality. Like you got there, if you managed to be a virgin, you’re good. But it’s the beginning of a journey of maturity that nobody seems to want to talk about.
Corey
I would think of marriage, if you’re talking about sex in marriage, you’re talking about personal development bootcamp.
Juli
Yeah. Amen. And spiritual development.
Corey
Is really the best way to Absolutely. I think God cares more about our character and our wisdom development than he does our orgasm and our good time.
Juli (29:51.382)
Amen. Yeah. Let me ask you one more question related to when the woman is the higher desire. Okay. And this is just the facts of how we’re created and how our bodies work. If the woman is a lower desire, even if she’s not in the mood, even if she feels like she’s never in the mood, she can do it. Right. She can be available. Right. But when it’s the high desire woman and she’s pursuing this man who you add upon every other reason that he’s low desire you add now you’ve got what if I can’t perform?
Corey
Yeah, or with a lot of lower desire men, it’s because of that. And there is a reality of if I can’t get an erection, you can’t do normal penal-vaginal intercourse.
Juli
Right. So how does a couple navigate that?
Corey
So one of the tenants of the higher desire, lower desire framework is a majority, a bulk of the responsibility of initiation is on the higher desire, because they’re the one interested in what they want more. And so that’s part of their role. The lower desire becomes the gatekeeper, because they could say yes or no. And so for a lot of women, when they have to make that shift to, wow, the risk of rejection hurts. It’s deeper and men have a little bit of a different wiring that I think allows us to step up to the plate a little easier knowing I may strike out because in and I guess leave this as a baseline. We all are going to get rejected when it comes to sex.
Juli
Within marriage.
Corey
Absolutely. So seeing it as how do I pursue what I’m interested in and then how do I start to redefine sex isn’t just penal vaginal intercourse. Some of the most romantic and engaging, in erotic moments might have nothing to do with intercourse. They might have to do with experimenting with different things with oral or different things with other digits or body parts and recognizing that, and I tell men this, if you can’t get an erect penis, your fingers and your tongue still work.
Juli
I don’t think anybody’s ever said that on job with you like that clearly. We talk about a lot of things, but you’re very frank about it and I appreciate that.
Corey
I think we have not done well enough with this subject that if we don’t just cut straight to it, we’re not doing it a good service. Because I think my experience, and I’m assuming yours is too, since you’re talking about this kind of subject as well, is there is so much pain and trauma and struggle with this aspect of life that there’s an element of to cut through the noise, you’ve got to just be blatant.
Juli
Yeah. Yeah, amen. And I think part of what you’re describing is, and this could be for men and women, that when you approach your partner asking for sex, perhaps you might reframe that as asking for intimacy, or I want to be sexual with you. Right. It doesn’t have to look like, nor should it always look like, this picture of what we think sex to be.
Corey
Sure, well, but even, and this is where personal development bootcamp comes in, because one, I don’t like the idea of asking for sex, because if any time I frame something I want as a possibility of a yes or no, it’s very easy for the lower desire to just go no, it’s by default. Because even if it’s something I really want, our reaction can easily be, nope, because it’s not on my radar, it doesn’t fit with my framework right now, so I’m not interested. So instead, it’s how do I initiate, how do I be intentional, how do I be a little more upfront about it.
Corey (33:22.712)
But the other thing is recognizing that as I’m going through this process and I start examining myself and my role in this process, how am I evolving to challenge my role to be better, to be more engaging, to be more upfront, to be honest about what I’m looking for, to be honest about where I am at that moment, because sometimes the higher desire husband, and I’ll throw us under the bus, will come at it with, I really just want to connect with you tonight. And so we do a lot of the, you know, we some candles and we create the nice environment and we start the whole process and then sex maybe doesn’t happen because she just doesn’t, she isn’t responsive. And so then I storm off.
And what I was saying is I want to connect with you was a lie. Because all of that point up to that point of actually not actually having sex was still connection. And so how do I stay in it and realize if I say I want connection, that’s not just as when my penis is inside your vagina. I can connect with you in a lot of ways. So how am I more upfront about that to see it as, so that didn’t work. Well, then I’ll stay and let’s cuddle, let’s hang out, we’ll keep talking, we maybe even pray. You know, there’s other things that maybe that steers the ship. Maybe it doesn’t, but I still cannot really, I can’t throw everything out and think, well, that was a failure. No, it wasn’t. I got good information about my role, my partner’s role. Now what do each of us want?
Juli
Let’s talk about ED for a minute, whether it’s because of medication or emotional reasons or aging. What is the impact of that on a man and on the marriage going forward?
Corey (35:15.29)
so there is a close tie between a man’s confidence and identity and the six to nine inches of a penis when it’s erect. That if I can get erect, then that’s my, I am all man. And if I can’t, well, there I’m not. And it’s so closely tied. think if you kind of look at it, we have a boy, he’s 12, but from the moment he discovered his penis, he always had to check to make sure it was there. You know, there’s an element of a man and his penis. There’s a great relationship there.
And so it’s seeing it as that there’s so much to realize that, wait, that’s just an appendage. And so if I have any kind of trouble or let me reframe it, when I have trouble in sex, whether it’s ED, premature ejaculation, delayed ejaculation, any of those things that can happen, okay, how do I take that as data point? What else is going around? What do I need to do? What else still works on me that I can still provide pleasure and get pleasure from, and just kind of look at it as the whole being, not just an appendage.
Juli
How does a wife help with that process? Sometimes it’s not, the wife has no problem with it. Her husband now avoids sex because of the fear.
Corey
So then it’s, I’m pleased to hear that sometimes a wife doesn’t have problems with it. Most of the couples I work with, when this is an issue, she takes it personally. She looks at it as, he’s not attracted to me, that’s why he couldn’t get an erection. Whereas that erection or lack thereof may have, and likely has nothing to do with her. She’s a sexually vibrant and attractive creature. So depersonalizing it is the route I go with a lot of women to realize that’s a him issue.
Corey (36:52.514)
Maybe your femininity could draw it back out of him in time. Your confidence could draw it out of him in time. And your courage to be supportive alongside his courage of, I’m going to seek answers. I’m going to seek what are my options to explore.
Juli
That’s helpful. So you’ve been married how long, Corey?
Corey
26 years.
Juli
I’ve been married 25. So about the same amount of time. We’ve learned a lot in this journey in our respective marriages. If you had a couple sitting in front of you that’s 25 years old, just married a week or two, and you could give them one piece of advice. They’re not going to understand what we just explained. They have to go on that journey. But what should they start with?
Corey (37:36.814)
Just in general for their marriage?
Juli
For their sexual aspect.
Corey
So this metaphor I’m gonna kind of go marriage and then sexual because it works both I one of the best things I’ve heard when you’re talking about doing marriage really well is create each of you create great cakes of life and Then let the marriage be the icing on the cake Too often we flip those things my marriage is all and I’m you know The biblical version of that is to shall become one so I cease to exist as an individual when…
Corey (38:06.518)
I don’t agree with that. I think we’re still individuals and we’re still responsible for ourselves. The same thing can be applied to your sex life, that the chance I get to connect with my partner is the cake, the orgasm is the icing on the cake. Sometimes I don’t have to have icing to have a cake that’s really good. And so if I can start to see that what’s the bigger story of the connection and even if, this kind of goes with your framework, even if that intimacy is incredibly uncomfortable, it’s still intimacy. Because intimacy is not always going to be comforting when I know someone else and they know me. There’s parts of that that’s like, that freaks me out.
Juli (38:53.11)
If you are walking through these challenges right now, remember you’re not the only one. mean most couples are going to experience mismatched sexual desire at some point and that’s just normal. healthy sex life is going to ebb and flow through different seasons of marriage and the key is building a long-term connection strong enough to handle those kinds of differences with grace and honesty. And the good news is there are lots of tools to help you and your spouse along the way.
One tool I might recommend is my book called God’s Sex and Your Marriage, which really helps reframe the whole purpose of sex and marriage and set up healthy conversations. We’re going to link to some blogs I’ve written on this topic in our show notes and to Corey’s podcast, Sexy Marriage Radio. Thanks for listening and I look forward to having coffee with you next time on Java with Juli.