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What’s okay in the bedroom—and how are married couples supposed to know?
In this episode, Juli doesn’t hand you a checklist. Instead, she walks you through three questions every couple can ask when navigating gray areas in the bedroom.
From pornography and fantasy to sex toys and more, this conversation helps you discern where you may need to draw a line and where you may need to step out of your comfort zone.
Joined by Hannah Nitz and Joe Caruso, this episode marks the kick off of a new series inspired by Juli’s newly revised, upcoming book, 25 Questions You’re Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy.
Juli (00:00.236)
Hi, friend. We are always looking for ways to get you the practical help you need in a format that is easy to access and use. And that’s why I’m really excited to share with you a project that has been in the works at Authentic Intimacy for some time now. We are taking the best content and resources on the most important topics around sexuality, and we’re packaging them in what we call Hot Topic Kits. The first one is now available.
It’s all about addressing the issue of pornography in marriage. Now in this kit, you’re going to find helpful video and audio clips, step-by-step advice, full-length podcast interviews, and resources that will help you take your next step. You’re also going to hear stories from couples and individuals who’ve been down this road and who have experienced God’s healing and redemption.
This kit is available for $15, but if you are an Authentic Intimacy member, the kit is already included in your membership. Friend, God wants to redeem your story. Are you ready to dive in? Look for the Hot Topic Hit link in the show notes or head to authenticintimacy.com.
Juli
Welcome to another episode of Java with Juli. I’m Juli Slattery. I’m the host of this podcast and this podcast is an outreach of a ministry called Authentic Intimacy, which helps people make sense of God and sexuality. And today we are entering into some fun space with Joe and Hannah again. So, Hannah Nitz and Joe Caruso, thanks so much for joining me.
Joe
Thank you for having us.
Hannah (01:37.56)
Thanks Juli!
Juli
We are kind of kicking off like a mini-series that’s going to be going on over the next several months. I wrote a book over 10 years ago called “25 Questions You’re Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy”. And I got around the last several months to updating, revising, rewriting that book. And it’s going to be coming out in June of this year. And we thought, hey, why not tackle a few of these questions on Java with Juli?
Hannah
So you wrote this book only 10 years ago, which doesn’t feel like that long ago to me. Do you know what I mean? I’m like, what was I only had one different car since then. I think I still got a pair of tennis shoes.
Juli
And three kids.
Hannah
Yeah, that’s true. I’ve had three kids since then. But why the rewrite 10 years later has that much changed about questions people are asking about love, sex and intimacy?
Juli
Let me put it in context that it was published 10 years ago, which means I wrote it probably more like 11 or 12 years ago. And the way I wrote that initial book was my publisher was like, hey, let’s just take some of your blog posts and the most popular things that you address and put them together in a book. And so when I went back and I reread what I had compiled and written over 10 years ago, I’m like, yeah, this definitely needs a rewrite. They are asking some different questions than what we were asking back in the day. But also a lot else has changed. I’ve learned a lot. Our culture has continued to progress to where I think even the starting point of how we address questions is different than it was a decade ago. And then also I’m writing this book not just to women. So 10 years ago.
Hannah (03:25.974)
Oh Juli.
Juli
Authentic Intimacy was a women’s ministry.
Hannah
Ten years ago, boys wouldn’t be picking up the book!
Joe
I’m a big fan of the shift, I’ll just say.
Juli
Yeah. So it has like a new cover. There you go. Yeah. And it has different questions and it’s a total rewrite.
Hannah (03:40.078)
So, man, well, I’m so excited about that. New and revised and better than ever. The 10 questions that you get asked most often.
Juli
The 25 questions.
Hannah
Wow, I’m so sorry. I’m shortchanging you.
Juli
No, that’s okay.
Hannah
Not just 10 questions. It’s the 25 questions. So, yeah. So this new book doesn’t come out until June, but it’s going to be so fun. think for you throughout the series, Juli, to cover like, you know, 10, 12, 15 of the most common questions that we get from those. So you’re going to get a slight taste of the book, but only half. So you got to keep, you know, tuning into the series and get the book yourself. But today we’re going to kick it off with maybe the question that comes in most often. I don’t know. A question we get a lot.
Juli
Maybe in the top five or ten.
Hannah
Okay. Juli’s very factual here. I’m not allowed to exaggerate.
Joe
How dare you?
Juli
A top 10 question. Okay. just an easy one for you guys here today. And it’s is “blank” okay in the bedroom? And we’re going to fill in that “blank” today, Juli. Today is a fill in the “blank” kind of day. Is “blank” okay in the bedroom? And I think, you know, I’m here with the one and only Dr. Juli Slattery who literally wrote the book on it. Joe Caruso, did you recently get a doctorate degree?
Joe (04:53.92)
No, a master’s degree. okay. I’m slow to this whole thing. Okay, okay. And then I was sworn to a promise that I can’t start my doctorate until there’s another graduation in my household, aka my daughter from high school.
Juli
Oh wow.
Hannah
This is fair.
Joe
Okay. Yeah, because it was a strain.
Hannah
Wow, I was really ready to say I’m here with both doctors, but Juli, you still get the crown. That’s The Joe Caruso.
Joe
I’m an underachiever.
Juli
Well a pastor, like all that pastoral experience you have is worth a doctorate at least.
Joe (05:22.134)
I’m hitting 20 years past during this year, right? Like actually this month.
Hannah
All right. Well, on the podcast, we’re going to say he’s got a doctorate. That sounds pretty serious. right. Dr. Joe, Dr. Juli, a lot of messages that we may have heard in the church for years around sexuality, we were quick on the don’t list. You know, I remember growing up in like a Christian education in the church, it was like, as a teenager, I was handed the don’t list. I mean, we knew like, this is what you do and don’t do sexually. So this question isn’t saying the don’ts. It’s like, it sounds like kind of this invitation of what is some of the do’s? Like is “blank” okay in the bedroom. And I know that Juli, as you talk about this, you’re saying a lot of times there’s a little bit more settling as a Christian couples of like what we think is allowed.
Juli
Well, I think there’s a lot of confusion Hannah so I think it’s a matter of the don’ts and a matter of the what you can do but the end result of it is you either have an individual or a couple who’s like afraid of oh, no, we can’t try that we don’t have freedom to do that and you kind of get stuck in a rut, or it can be an individual or couple that is just constantly compromising because it’s sort of a gray area, they’re not really sure if it’s okay or if it’s not, but they like it. But there’s a subtle sense of guilt and shame around the bedroom or even conflict between the husband and the wife because one of them keeps pushing the limits and asking, hey, let’s do this or that. And the other one feels uncomfortable with it or has a conviction about it. So this covers, I think, a lot of territory for married couples. I would say that most married couples have one or two things where they’re like, I’m just really not sure if God’s okay with us doing this.
So maybe they have more than one or two things. Maybe it’s a whole list of things like, I just have no clarity. I know we weren’t supposed to have sex outside of marriage, but now that we’re married, what actually can we do and is God okay with?
Hannah
So there’s a lot of variations from this question. You kind of touched on some of that, but I think some of the ones that we’ll see coming into Authentic Intimacy most often or hearing when you’re speaking at an event and people can do Q &A, questions like is oral sex okay? Is it wrong to role play with my spouse? Do you think sex toys are wrong? What’s wrong with married couples watching porn together, or is it okay if we’re both on the same page? If we just like look at this big picture, how do we help couples work through these big questions? Like, where do we even begin with how to bring the goodness of sexuality and God’s truth into these questions in our marriage?
Juli
Yeah, and I would even add to that list, Hannah. I mean, we could add so many things, but… Other common things, the question of anal sex is being asked more and more often today. Question of, can we make homemade porn? Like, is it OK for us to video ourselves or video my spouse or how about mutual masturbation or… There’s lots of questions like this that couples are really wrestling with, and they really don’t know where to go with the answer, which is why when I speak and we do a live Q &A, people are like, finally I can text in that question.
Hannah
Juli’s here to give me the answer.
Juli
There you go. So, you know, I learned a lot of this from Linda Dillow when we were first creating resources like Passion Pursuit back in the day, and really trying to give people a framework for how do we answer these questions, not just this is a yes, this is a no, but really to give you tools to think critically, to have discernment about, you know, what does God say about these issues and how do I understand the principles to apply when there’s not a clear verse in Scripture that says this is okay or this isn’t okay.
Hannah
So you don’t just pass out the yes and no list. These are the thumbs up.
Juli (09:30.83)
Right, and so as we talk through this episode, you’re going to hear that there’s some things where like, I can’t really tell you if that’s okay for you or not. That’s something that you guys are going to have to decide together, which is like, wait, what? I just want the black and white.
Hannah
We all love an answer, Juli.
Juli
We do. And there’s security in answers. And I think that’s why we crave them. Because it’s like, okay, well, as long as I know this is okay, then I don’t have to wrestle. But, God wants us to wrestle at times.
Joe
And, sometimes we want answers because we hope someone else will validate our bad decisions. That is
Hannah
Wow, Joe coming in with the truth.
Joe (10:08.578)
I’m just going for it.
Juli
20 years of pastoring right there.
Joe
That’s exactly right. They’re like, they’ll set up the context. We do this and this is why we do it. And that’s okay, right? And I’m like, no. What do you mean? And I’m like, it’s just not okay. You know, it’s not always sexual things, but we want validation. So sometimes that’s why we want answers.
Juli
That is so true… Yeah, especially when we phrase a question like that, like, that’s okay, right? Everybody’s doing that. Right. All right. So, we’re going to talk through a framework of how you discern and make decisions related to sex and marriage, what’s okay. And Joe, you’re going to bring in your pastoral wisdom and biblical knowledge, particularly on this first point that we’re going to hit. We’re going to talk about three specific questions that you can ask.
The first one is, has God said no to this? And when we read the Bible from cover-to-cover, we’re going to see some things that God clearly says no to. He says no to things, and these aren’t going to surprise you, to things like committing adultery, having sex outside of your marriage. He says no to, which is sort of a blanket phrase of sexual immorality. It’s the Greek word pornea, which is where we get the word pornography from. But porno or sexual immorality is any time that we’re engaging sexually based on what we want and our needs instead of looking at what’s God’s design for sex. And on this podcast before we’ve talked about covenant, how God created sexual intimacy to be a celebration of the covenant relationship. So whenever we take sex outside of that, it’s wrong.
We can also look at scripture where it talks about not objectifying other people, not coveting other people, and that would include sexually, where it’s like, man, I wish I was married to somebody like that, or fantasizing, you know, that sort of thing. But I also feel like there’s some more nuanced areas where the Bible says no to us sexually. I think it’s 1st or 2nd Thessalonians, you know, Paul is saying, don’t defile your brother sister, you know, don’t compromise them, don’t take advantage of them.
We see in Ephesians chapter 5, Paul saying to husbands, present your wife to yourself as a pure and blameless bride. And you think about that sexually. Like, what does that mean for husbands to protect the purity of your wife and not to be introducing things into your bedroom that defile her? So, I think that there are clear commands of “thou shalt not do this, this, or this”. And there’s also some biblical principles that I think give some guidance here.
Hannah
So when anyone’s coming to you with one of these questions, that’s really where you’re starting. You’re saying like, let’s look at this first and say, does God say no?
Juli
Yeah
Hannah
So if it’s not on the list, where do we go next?
Juli (13:08.396)
That’s where we have to ask questions two and three. All right. So, because this is where we get more into discernment. So question two would be, is it only us? Is it only between the husband and wife?
Joe
I think that this is such a powerful question and honestly it can become one of the easiest guideposts because I’ve probably done somewhere around 60 or 70 weddings and I can only imagine how awkward it would be for the couple if I said like now it’s just you two and then the 30 or 40 other people that you invite into your bedroom. I mean it would just be the most awkward thing in the world. I’d probably get fired, probably should get fired.
Juli
You wouldn’t do any other weddings.
Joe
I certainly wouldn’t. I’d be on YouTube for a while. But it makes no sense in the world when we’re clearly looking at our devotion to our spouse, but then something happens when if we kind of get our minds twisted that it would be okay to introduce pornography into the bedroom. And “as long as we’re both on the same page” and that logic is so flawed. If we keep it just sexual, it’s like we wouldn’t, well, let me say this. I hope we wouldn’t invite other people into our bedroom.
Joe (14:20.926)
So why would we invite it like theoretically into our bedroom, hypothetically, visually into our bedroom where the only way for me to get more turned on is to watch other people have an intimacy, intimate moment, a fake intimate moment at that. And then that logic also breaks down as well because if both of us are okay with something, that doesn’t mean it’s okay. If Mandy and I are both okay with robbing a bank, that doesn’t mean it’s okay. Like, so just because we get on the same page about a bad idea doesn’t change the bad idea to a good idea.
Hannah
Yeah, that is a mind-blowing sentence. I’ve never thought of that.
Joe
Yeah, so like consent in this exact and specific context is a lie. Like, well, we’re both okay with it. Who cares? It’s still terrible idea.
Hannah
Yeah, yeah.
Joe
And so I think that that’s like the heartbeat of God telling us marriage is supposed to mimic our relationship with Him is because it’s about faithfulness. Like, I’m faithful to you. I’m cleaving to you only. I’m forsaking all others, both visually in picture and video, online, in person, I’m forsaking all others to cleave to you only as a covenant relationship with you. So even if I get temporarily attracted to someone else, I’m taking that thought captive, throwing it to the side and saying, no, I’m faithful to you because anything else is equivalent to idolatry.
Hannah (15:39.342)
So what do do then if the question feels a little bit, there’s still wiggle room there. So maybe the person’s saying, is it only us? Well, it’s not another person. You know, we pull up a ChatGPT and it writes sexual explicit stories and we read that out loud together. It’s not another person. What if I watch animated porn? I mean, it’s like, does it have to be a living thing?
Or even, you one of the questions you heard about with sex toys, it’s like, well, is that something other than us?
Juli
Yeah, I want to pause on the question of sex toys. We’ll hit that in a few minutes, but because I think that is a separate category, but it’s a great question of what does it mean if it’s just us? You know, what like, what does that mean? And if it’s a fake person, it’s a fantasy, if it’s a role play, it’s still saying essentially, it’s not enough for us just to be together. It’s not enough for me just to focus on you, it’s not enough for us just to learn to be aroused with our own love. We need this third, even imaginary person.
And I think even more often than a couple agreeing on this thing, this type of thing, a lot of times it’s in one individual’s mind. So you’re bringing in the memory of something, of something that you saw online or a movie you saw, you’re bringing in, you know, like the plot line of a spicy novel, because you’ve trained your neural pathways to respond to that memory or to that image, and you can’t respond to your spouse. So the only way that you can get excited is, oh I have to go back to this place where I know how to get aroused that way. And so that’s where it gets more complex. But when we understand that God created sex to be a journey that you work on with your spouse, where you learn and train your brain and your body to respond to each other, all this other stuff, all these other imageries, people, whatever it is, it’s a distraction. So it’s not right and it’s not good for you.
Joe
I think too often we are asking ourselves, like, how close can I get to the edge of the cliff as opposed to how far away from the edge of the cliff can I run?
Juli
Wow, that’s good.
Joe
Or in the context of God, instead of God, will you allow me to do all this stuff that seems fringe versus like, can I pursue you trusting that you’ll take me where I need to go? And I think same thing relationally, like, instead of always asking, these more modern brainstorms of like using AI, that’s artificial intelligence in this context, as a tool to help me think through fantasies, we’re asking the wrong question. “How can I be more connected to my spouse?” is a better question. if like, Juli, like you’re saying, if I have to use all of these other things and think of other people or look at other things or look at other people, well, now I’m not getting closer to my spouse. I’m just trying to reserve my spouse for the end of the line as opposed to her or him being the journey along the way.
Juli
Boy, that’s a good point. So let me ask you a question that we can debate a little bit. Do you think it’s possible to lust in marriage?
Joe
Yes, absolutely.
Juli
Okay, talk about it.
Joe (18:53.07)
So, and here’s a super practical reason why. This is peeling back my own curtain a little bit. So I just celebrated 20 years marriage.
Juli and Hannah
Congratulations.
Hannah
Oh so exciting!
Joe
Thank you. Like a week and a half ago at the time of this recording. So I remember very early in my relationship, I’m a planner by default, I think in abstract and hypotheticals. And so I would have these days where I’m like, you when we get home, we’re gonna do this and then I’m gonna say this and then she’s gonna respond this way and then we’re gonna end up here and it’s gonna be all night long and this, that and the other. Do know how many times it ever worked out that way?
Hannah
At least once.
Joe
No never, not once, because there’s an actual other person involved. And so let alone their wants, their desires, like I come home, I’m hot and heavy, I’ve been thinking about her all day long, and she comes home having the worst day ever. And I’m like, well, get over it, I have plans. Doesn’t work, right? And so like, I think there’s at least a version of lusting after your partner that’s not healthy because you’re creating a false sense of connection that doesn’t actually exist.
And then you’re only setting yourself up for being disappointed and or even being early, early on when this would happen. I learned eventually to stop doing this, but like I’d get mad at her. I’m like, don’t you know I’ve been thinking about this for 10 hours? How dare you not respond when you’ve had five seconds to catch up to the beginning of what my daydream was. And then I’d literally go like a day or longer, like what gives you’re the worst, you know, like, and so. I’ve just found that at least that style of lusting after your, it’s not fruitful. It’s not helpful.
Juli
And I think, you know, underneath all that is the belief that you’re here to serve me. And sex is about getting my needs met, how I want them to be met, and I have expectations. And so in marriage, when we continue with that paradigm, and all of us probably start with that paradigm.
Joe
I definitely started with that paradigm.
Juli
I think we all at some level do. And when that gets broken and we get angry, it’s like, wait, you know, like, this isn’t supposed to be about me consuming you for my benefit. This is about a mutual pursuit of connection and pleasure and intimacy. So I think when we pull all those layers back, we start to realize why these kinds of things like fantasy and role playing and images and pornography and all this sort of thing, it’s not just sinful in terms of getting in the way of your intimacy with your spouse, but it’s feeding that consumer mentality in marriage that this is about me getting what I want when I want it, instead of it being a pure pursuit of how do we actually enjoy this gift together and grow together in intimacy.
Hannah
Which really is the heart of that second question you said of, it only us? The heart of that is the us. Like it’s what you’re talking about. It’s not that we’re saying this, know, like shame on you for wanting all this. It’s like the beauty of what you’re trying to build here is the “us”.
Joe
Yeah, because it’s not just, should I add the third, the fourth, the fortieth person? Yeah. It’s that I also am adding the second, because the question’s also not, is it just me? Yeah. Which is what you were just saying. Because if it is the mindset of, how do I get sexual pleasure? You’ve already missed the crux of the question.
Hannah
Yo Dr. Caruso, that was good.
Juli (22:32.11)
That’s really good. And I think that this is so key because often we can listen to a conversation like this, kind of with that legalism mindset of, said I can’t do this, God said I can’t do that. But getting that bigger picture of what God is asking us to protect and pursue is so critical to understanding why He says no to things.
Hannah
We are just so drawn to the legalism.
Juli
We are.
Hannah
We just want it for some reason.
Joe
If you think about, Jesus said, if we love God and we love others, everything else hangs on that. But it’s not love, like romantic love, because I mean, especially God’s not saying, you need to be romantically fall in love with me. That is not what God is saying. And when he says love other people, he’s including more than just your spouse. So that kind of love, it’s the sacrifice for one another. It’s what’s the benefit of the other person? How do I honor the other person?
How do I lift up the other person? How do I serve the other person? So now when we bring that into a romantic relationship or to our sexuality with our spouse, like how do I honor them? How do I serve them? How do I help them? How do I lift them up? And this is incredibly foreign conversation for some of us when it comes to our sexuality, because it’s often the reverse. How can they serve me? How can they honor me? How can they lift me up? How can they do all these things?
But like, if we’re trying to do that type of love that Jesus is talking about with our spouse, then as he says, the rest of this is gonna fall into the right place because you’re already starting with the mindset of how do I, in my case, how do I honor my wife? How do I help my wife, serve my wife? Like it’s a game-changer when we realize what Jesus is actually asking for.
Hannah (24:12.558)
So then some of these questions that we started with are still making it, they’ve snuck through these first two answers, right? So, you one of the first ones I read was, is oral sex okay? So if, you know, this first question, did God say no? We went through the no list. The next question, is it only us? So if we’re clear on those two, where do we go next, Juli?
Juli
Asking the question, it good for us?
Hannah
Okay, so number three, is it good for us?
Juli
Yeah. when we look at some of what Paul wrote to the early church, they were really trying to break out of legalism too.
Hannah
All of us, man.
Juli
Yeah. So this goes way back, you know, and they were debating things that when we look at them now, we’re like, why were they talking about whether you can eat meat that was sacrificed to idols? And like these were the hot topics in their day.
Juli (25:07.438)
Paul essentially, like he’s answering these questions by way of letters that are going back and forth. And at one point he just says, look guys, in Christ you have freedom. Like everything is permissible for you, but not everything is going to be beneficial or not everything will be loving or not everything is going to build you up. And when we read that in Paul’s letter, it’s like, yeah, that’s still true today. And this is what I would say to married couples.
You know, like you have freedom in Christ and you need to enjoy that freedom in Christ, but you also have to realize that not everything you choose to do is going to be loving or beneficial for you. And, Hannah I really feel like this question is again, where we need discernment and couples need communication, they need prayer together. But a lot of those questions on that list of can we do this? Can we do that? They ultimately come down to this question: Is it loving? And does it benefit you, not just as an individual, but is it building you up as a couple?
So let me give you some examples of things that, you know…
Hannah
Let’s do it Juli.
Juli
Okay sure, that made it through that first two. But I would say probably don’t make it through that third. One of them is the kinds of activity that would be represented by like bondage, BDSM, where one person is tying up the other person, you know, humiliating them, you know, it has in it, the BDSM has in it, the words like sadism, masochism, you know, it’s this idea of you’re serving me, I’m the master. And this became very popular after Fifty Shades of Grey, that romantic, spicy, erotic novel that came out several years ago. But if you’re engaging in that, you can go through the list and say, well, I didn’t specifically say no to this. And we’re not bringing anybody else into it, it’s just between the two of us. But I would ask you, what are you actually doing to each other when one person is physically hurting, restraining, humiliating the other person and taking on a dominance role? Is that loving and is that beneficial? And so we would say, well, no, like it’s even if you’re agreeing to it, there’s something unhealthy there.
Juli (27:33.784)
I think another example of this would be anal sex. You know, there’s really nowhere in scripture that we see where God says this is not okay for a married couple. But when we look at the biology of it, it’s not healthy. It’s not pleasurable for a woman. It’s not safe even medically because of all the bacteria that is in that part of our body. I think years and years ago, I asked a doctor, just medically what he thought about this and he said, well, God made that an exit, not an entrance. So usually couples that are engaging in anal sex, that’s coming from images of pornography. It’s just not edifying. But then there are other things like oral sex where that’s really an issue between a husband and wife. And there are some couples who would say, yeah, this is something we enjoy. This is something that builds up our love life, it’s something that we agree to do together, and that’s fine, but maybe for another couple, there’s an individual that’s triggered by that or has a conviction around that, and so for that couple, that’s not a good thing for them to engage in.
Hannah
So yeah, so what do you do, Juli, for that third question of is it good for us if maybe a married couple has different answers for that even within their marriage? If one is like, yeah, this is good for us and the other is like, I don’t think so. I mean, how do you handle kind of that difference there?
Juli
Yeah, you have to have communication about it. So I would really want to know from the person who says, I’m not good with that, why? Tell me about that. Because there are different reasons. Number one, could be that reminds me of something that’s very unpleasant. Like if you have experienced sexual trauma, maybe a certain action is, again, triggering for you in that trauma where it’s like it feels unsafe for me.
Juli (29:35.562)
It just takes me out of the place of feeling like we’re intimate. So you got to pay attention to that. Another thing is, you know, we have different convictions. And the scripture says that we’re going to have different convictions and says, hey, if your brother’s convicted about something, then you need to honor that conviction. And so if it’s a conviction issue where it’s like, just don’t want, I don’t feel the freedom from the Lord to engage in that, then the scripture is clear that you honor that conviction. But I would say sometimes it’s an issue of comfort. I think this is particularly true for either people that are newly married or maybe have some purity culture indoctrination where it feels like nothing is…
Hannah
is approved.
Juli
Yes, it’s like we can only do it this way this time. I would say that’s probably an issue of comfort for you. Like to grow in anything, including to grow in sexual love together, you’re going to have to try things that might be uncomfortable at first and get out of your comfort zone. And so I think you have to have that conversation of, is this an issue of comfort? Is it an issue of conscience? Or is this an issue that brings up something from my past that just makes us feel unsafe, that really helps guide you?
Joe
I would want to echo when you’re asking those questions and figuring out about the communication to make sure that you’re asking those questions with a loving curiosity and you’re not putting the other person on the defense stand. You know, so like.
Hannah
Yeah, that’s a good, good…
Joe
Yeah, because like if I’m really excited about the possibility of one of these options and she’s like, I don’t think I am.
Joe (31:21.118)
It’s not, well, tell me why because everything’s permissible, not everything. And then you’re putting her or him on the defensive stand as opposed to like, well, tell me about that. I wanna understand something because if something seems so okay, if not exciting for me, what does that put in your mind that’s the opposite? I truly wanna know why you would think.
And one of two things is likely, well, at least one of three. One, you’ll just agree that you’d see it differently. That’s the first one. But one, one of you might realize, actually, as I talk through this, it might not be as big of a deal as I thought. Or the third, oh if you view it that way, I don’t want to put you in that situation. But if we go at it with like, you better prove to me why this is a good or a bad idea. Well, that’s not connection. If anything, that’s divisive.
Juli
And sometimes that whole exercise or conversation will help you realize the fear you have. For example, lot of women have a lot of body insecurity, and so they may not be as playful in the bedroom because like, I don’t want to wear that, or I just feel awkward, or I’m not sexy enough, or… And it’s like, oh okay, that’s the issue. Then we really need to look at the lie that you’re believing.
And for that husband to really understand his wife’s insecurity and how important it is for her to know how much he loves her, loves her body, isn’t going to judge her. So there’s things like that that might come through the journey and the conversation that help you move towards more freedom and healing.
Hannah
So Juli one of the things that you gave a little teaser on and you said we’ll cover that later is one of the questions that I don’t think we really fully address with these three yet, which do you think sex toys are wrong? That’s a question that comes in a lot. So how would you handle a question around sex toys with those three in your little rubric exercise?
Juli (33:12.051)
So first I think we need to define what’s a sex toy.
Hannah
Great. Let’s do. I’ll leave that to you, doctor.
Joe
That’s all you. No one needs a sound clip defining that.
Juli
Yeah, so there you go. So I think, you know, immediately comes to mind things you might buy at sort of an adult shop or that sort of thing. But let me ask you, like, is massage oil a sex toy or a mirror? You know, so it’s like, wait, all of sudden, you know, like, where do we draw the line? And so, you know, I think what we have to go back to is what is the purpose of sex? And there are lot of different purposes for a married couple, but one of the purposes is mutual enjoyment and intimacy and freedom together and celebration together. And so there are certain things that you may or may not label a sex toy that actually just helps a couple enter into that enjoyment.
Juli (34:16.191)
So I don’t think most people would be offended by bringing massage oil into the bedroom or scented candle that that accentuates the senses
Hannah
That there’s something else you’re adding that’s like technically not just two bodies. There’s like another.
Joe
Or even like lingerie or the outfit you wear to bed.
Juli
It is. It’s like, okay, that heightens us entering into pleasure together. So I would even say, like, as we get into what we traditionally define as a sex toy, like a vibrator, there are some women that really struggle with climax. They don’t know how to get excited. And they found that when we engage with this sex toy, this helps. And this is something we both agree on. It’s something that helps us experience pleasure together.
And I’d be like, yeah, great. But I would say that same sex toy for another couple might actually be something that’s getting in the way, where it’s like they’re not working on intimacy. It’s become all about the pleasure and not about the communication. Like they’re in a stage in their marriage where this is just a distraction. They’re trying to always reach that next high. And I would say, then it’s not good for you. So this is where, again, it requires so much discernment of what’s going on on the journey of intimacy. And is this something that builds love for us? Or is it something that’s a distraction or something that’s creating conflict?
Hannah
Yeah, and the beauty of that third question of is this good for us? Again, like it gives you that freedom and that invitation. Like you were talking about, Joe, of like a good conversation between the two of you on what that is.
Juli
And again, in over 30 years of marriage, Mike and I have been on through decades, there’s things that 15 years ago I would say, no, that’s not good for us, that today I’d be like, yeah, that is good for us, or vice versa. So it’s really seeking the Lord’s discernment together and keeping in mind, why did he give us this gift of sex and how do we engage in it and steward it in a way that honors each other and honors him?
Hannah
So we got those three questions and I think even the examples you guys gave and help us talk through what that can look like. I think this is gonna be a great tool for a lot of people who are coming with questions of is “blank” okay? We put a lot of “blanks” in that today.
Juli
Yeah, and God loves it when His children come to Him with questions. And I think that this is something so key is that it’s not just you and your spouse figuring this out, but be okay with asking God and asking for His wisdom. Something that I’ve learned to be very passionate about is we need to pray about our sexuality. And as a married couple, we need to pray together that God would give us wisdom and that He would help us again to honor Him, to enjoy the gift He’s given, to honor each other in that because he’s the one who created it and it is a journey.
Hannah
Well guys, we’re so thankful that you were joining us and being a part of this conversation and we would love to hear your thoughts. And hey, maybe we missed something. Like maybe there’s a question around this topic that you would still love to hear. You can head to Authentic Intimacy and send a message and just let us know. You know, we have so many more episodes to come as we are getting ready for this book release in June, really tackling the questions that you want to know about love, sex, and intimacy. We would also, as always, love a rating, a review, a comment in your podcast app, let us hear from you. We’d to know that you’re listening.
And if you found this conversation helpful, share it with a friend. Actually, you know who’s the best person to text this to?
Juli
Joe Caruso.
Hannah
No, your spouse. Text it to your spouse. This would be such a great activity. Listen to it together. Think about some, mean, this, feels awkward. This can be a great starting spot. Allow Juli to say the words instead of you having to say them and you can get started. Juli, do you think of certain follow-up resources you know, as we’re listening to this podcast of things that you’ve worked through or created of like a good next step?
Juli
I would say “God, Sex, and Your Marriage” is a great next step for lot of individuals and couples. “Surrendered Sexuality”. Also a Bible study that Linda Dillow and I created about 15 years ago called “Passion Pursuit”. As a wife, you could check that out. I will give you a little bit of a teaser that that’s the next project I’m going to be working on is to replace “Passion Pursuit” with something that’s more up to date, so that will be coming out.
Hannah
Oh, what a great idea. This is why you wait till the end of the podcast episode, you might find out something like that at the end.
Juli
And of course we have lots of blogs, we have Q &A videos, more podcast episodes just like this one that you can find at our website authenticintimacy.com. Thanks for joining me for this week’s Java with Juli and I look forward to being back next week where we will have coffee and conversation again.