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This week, Juli sits down with Joe and Hannah to tackle the question: What do you do when you’re attracted to someone who isn’t your spouse?
Together, they unpack the reality that attraction outside of marriage isn’t a matter of if, but when. From the myth of “soulmates” to the powerful role of brain chemistry, this conversation explores why these feelings happen, and why they don’t have to define your choices.
You’ll also learn how small decisions, honesty, and intentional investment in your marriage can protect what matters most.
Juli (00:01.23)
Hey, I’m so glad you joined me for another episode of Java with Juli. I’m Juli Slattery and this podcast is an outreach of Authentic Intimacy and that’s a ministry helping people make sense of God and sexuality. Hannah Nitz and Joe Caruso are back with me in the studio today. Hey guys.
Joe
How’s it going?
Juli
Pretty good. How about you?
Hannah
Solid intro.
Juli
I don’t know, there you go. How’s it going with you?
Joe
Oh, I’m doing pretty good.
Juli
A little small talk.
Joe
I love hanging out with you two. I’ve only got to do this a few times now, but I love absolutely doing it. And this is always a fun basement to hang out in.
Juli
Yeah. We said studio, you know, so it’s…
Joe
…Studios are never in a cool place.
Hannah
Sometimes I feel like Juli’s pulling a prank on us. Let me know if you agree with this, Joe. Where every time we come here, the table we’re meeting at is smaller. Don’t you feel like it’s getting smaller?
Joe
Oh absolutely.
Hannah
And it’s like somehow I’m like four inches away from Joe’s face as I’m having to talk about the question.
Joe
Every time it’s gonna be on a TV tray.
Juli
Okay, so the true story, we usually have two tables here set up, and my son borrowed one of them for a party and he hasn’t brought it back.
Joe
It’s not a complaint, it’s just a reality.
Juli
So if you’re listening to this, Michael, we need our table back.
Joe
Come on, Michael.
Hannah
Because we are too close to each other as we’re talking about these.
Joe
He thought it wasn’t a big deal, but it is a big deal. It’s just a table.
Hannah
Oh my goodness. Well, even on this tiny table, we are going to continue to go through all the questions that we’ve been getting over the years that have compiled into the new release of the book, 25 questions you’re afraid to ask about love, sex, and intimacy. So we’ve been working our way through those, taking not all 25 questions, but some of the highlights and just giving people a taste of what’s covered in the book. And I’m so excited that we get to do that another day.
Juli
Yeah.
Hannah
And Juli, I think this question that we’re going to talk about today on this tiny table is something that people often don’t bring up until they’re a little too far down the road, until it’s feeling too late. So the question is, what if I’m attracted to someone else? So what do I do if I’ve met someone who isn’t my spouse and I am very attracted to them?
Juli
Yeah. Well, I would say, you know, the first thing is, it’s probably not what if I’m attracted to somebody else, but what do I do when I’m attracted to someone else?
Hannah
So you’re telling us it’s gonna happen.
Juli
It’s going to happen. Yeah. It might not be, I’m tempted to sleep with this person, but it will happen where it’s like, maybe I should have married somebody more like that. Or I just have better chemistry with this person. Or I don’t feel like my spouse gets me the way this other person does.
Hannah
Or, for some reason, I just want to hang out with this person.
Juli
Yeah. And here’s one thing I would say is something unique about the day and age we’re living in that we might not have been so aware of 15 or 20 years ago. I think particularly for a lot of women, it can be another woman, which we don’t see coming. But I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen it happen where a married woman has a best friend and emotions become confusing. It becomes enmeshed. And all of culture is screaming, well, then that must mean you must be meant to be with this person. So we can’t just assume that this is, I’m attracted to another man or if you’re a man, I’m attracted to another woman, it can also be the same gender.
Hannah
So if it’s not if it’s gonna happen, it’s when it’s gonna happen.
Joe
And I agree with Juli, it’s when. But even if you end up being the 0.00001 % of humanity that that doesn’t apply to, you’re going to have friends that it applies to, family that it applies to, and how would you walk them through this? How would you help them? So you need to understand how this plays out so that at a minimum you can be a resource, and at a maximum in reality be ready for it when it hits you.
Juli
And I would also say we have single people listening and we’re talking to you too, because that’s part of even the decision of dating and considering marriage is sometimes you’re like, well, what if I meet somebody I like better? You know, like I don’t want to get married because there’s this chance that five years down the road, I meet somebody and I’m like, I should have been with that person. So I think this question can shed light into even some of those conflicts and struggles that you have as a single.
Hannah
So Joe, if you think about hearing this question of like, what if I’m attracted to someone else? How does this question show up to you in your office as a pastor?
Joe
Yeah, well, first of all, it does show up and it’s usually with one of two emotions. One, it’s like great shame and/or humility of like, oh my gosh, why am I attracted to this other person? Or the other side of it is it’s way too late and they’re like, so I just assigned divorce papers because I’m running after this person. And if you’re anywhere close to the latter, I don’t even know how to tell you to go back in time. Like, just stop for a minute because you’re not running to anything that’s gonna fix your life. So when those people show up on the earlier side of things, what I usually am trying to help them understand is like, okay, welcome to humanity. Now what are we gonna do about it? And after you’re on the other side of it, I usually try to like firmly get in the way as much as I can. I’m like, you’re about to blow up your life and you don’t have to. I’ll pause there because we want to get into so many more of these angles, but that I see the whole spectrum.
Juli
Yeah, I mean, some of what you’re saying is that lie that our attractions are determinative. Yes. And I think that’s so important to confront. In other words, if I feel drawn to this person, if I feel more vulnerable with them than I do my spouse, if I can’t stop thinking about them or dreaming about them or whatever it might be, that means that I need to be with them. And that is such a cultural lie, lie from the enemy.
I also think it gets to the root of what makes attraction more complicated. And this is something that we’ve talked about on other episodes. We tend to have the mindset, even as Christians, that dating and finding a spouse is about finding the person who’s going to satisfy me, and make me the happiest. We don’t say that out loud, but it’s like, how do I find the person that I’m most attracted to, have the most chemistry with, love being with, who feels like they complete me?
Juli
And if you go into marriage with that mindset, and then 10 years down the road, you find somebody else who fits that bill better, then it creates this spiral of confusion of maybe I made a mistake, why did God let me do this? Maybe God wants me to be with this other person because I’m so much more seen and satisfied with them. And so it’s not just a matter of the attraction, it’s a matter of all the thinking and lies that start to dominate once that attraction hits.
Joe
Absolutely. I love that you’re dealing with that because our culture is so much about like the soulmate and who you complete me to go back a few, know, probably like 30 years.
Juli
How long ago is that?
Hannah
It’s a long time.
Joe
Jerry Maguire, right? That was a long time ago. like we were so drawn to that. Even Disney Princess movies, you it’s like you find your one true love, you find it it’s going to solve and fix everything. And we love that story because we want, most of us, if not all of us, want that romantic and intimate connection.
Hannah
Joe. This week my four-year-old asked my husband, what is it like to find your true love?
Juli
No.
Hannah
Yeah. Opal. She asked this question. I mean it starts young… she’s four.
Juli
Where did she even get that?
Joe
Probably parenting.
Hannah
Her favorite movie is Sleeping Beauty and I think they need true love’s kiss.
Joe
I was just talking with a guy whose I think his daughter’s also four and she was like breaking down because she’s like, who am I going to marry? So it does. It’s some version of this enters in so early. And what’s fascinating about it to me is it actually puts the romance or the sexuality on a pedestal it was never meant to be on. Like your soulmate is Jesus, end of podcast. Like stop trying to find someone else that’s gonna meet all the needs of your soul. That will only happen in the person of Jesus. But then secondarily, like we always become more engaged and enraptured and close with the people that were physically in proximity with. So in other words, who are your friends now? They’re the people that you hang out with and see regularly. Who are the people that were your friends in fifth grade? The people that sat near you at school that you ate lunch with, that you played with at recess. They weren’t the friends that lived a school district over, even though maybe you would have had more chemistry with them or less chemistry with them.
One of my best friends, he told me about five or six years into our friendship, he goes, you know, for about the first year that I knew you, I couldn’t stand you. And I was like, what? And I was like, why? He goes, I don’t know. He goes, but you drove me crazy. And now for real, we’re like brothers. And what happened was though, we ended up being in more and more environments. And so even people you can’t stand, if you spend time with them, you will probably grow closer to them.
Hannah
You could hate Joe Caruso when you first meet him.
Joe
It happens.
Hannah
He’ll grow on you.
Joe
And so I’m bringing this up for the super practicality of if you’re hanging around someone that you’re attracted to, you’re going to become more attracted to them and or find them that you’re have more chemistry because of a lot of that proximity and relationship. And so it’s not like, wow, a miracle of somebody that I’m attracted to. It’s like, no, you just work with them a lot. Or it can be that simple sometimes.
Juli
I can, would say there are other situations though, where the proximity of marriage wears on you.
Hannah
Oh yeah, that’s the other side.
Juli
And you’re like, know, all this person’s weaknesses…
Joe
Sure.
Juli
They annoy me.
Hannah
I know the noise they make when they get up from the couch.
Juli
There you go. Is this personal here?
Hannah (10:44.338)
Oh no, absolutely not. You are living so much of the everyday for so many years.
Juli
And then you see someone who you don’t know all of their weaknesses and annoying habits and you see them at their best, whether it’s at work or at church or whenever they’re funny and they’re lighthearted and you don’t have that proximity and that person can look like, wow, I think I’d be much happier. Yeah.
Hannah
So when we’re opening this conversation and you’re both saying like, okay, it’s not if, it’s when, we all experience this, is it then in a way like, take a breath, like this happens to everyone, like just don’t make a bad decision and you’re good. Or is it like, no, when this happens, sound the alarm and here is your exit strategy?
Juli
I think it’s both things.
Joe
I was gonna say the same thing. I do think that there are times when, well, you have to be honest about the level of attraction. Like there’s a version of like that person’s cute, or a fleeting thought of like, what would it be like? And then you, as the scripture says, you take that thought captive, you rein it back in. And if you’re able to actually keep that at bay, then you just need to keep that at bay. But then there are other times when it’s like, if you can’t stop the daydream, if you can’t seem to stop the wandering, if you’re, when you walk into that room, like your heart flutters a little bit, like on the regular, like you probably need to change your environments.
Mandy and I had friends when we first started dating that were like, I’m just not gonna be friends with her anymore. And that feels so weird and harsh. And I can picture comment threads all over the internet that’s like, you weak man and this, that and the other, and not every relationship has to end to that. And it’s like, I was just being honest with myself. I did love my wife exponentially more than I was attracted to these other people. But I’m like, why would I put this right in front of me all the time? This doesn’t make any sense. And it’s a relationship that I don’t need to maintain, not to mention the fact that when I said my vows, I said I would forsake all others for the sake of my wife. All others, not less attractive people for my wife, not people that I don’t want to be, like, all others. And so at least at that point in my life, I took that incredibly seriously, I still do. And I have to be willing to say if I’m attracted to somebody and it’s starting to pull me toward them, I need to forsake them, for the sake of my vows, my commitment and my love for my wife.
Juli
Yeah, and your love for the Lord.
Joe
Yes,100%.
Juli
I think it’s, when I say “both and”, I think there’s a sense to which it is good to be like, yeah, Joe and Juli, they told me this would happen. Like this is normal. And again, it doesn’t have to be determinative and it can be deceptive. So one of the things I think we need to realize is what happens in the brain when you have a new attraction or a new relationship.
There are unique chemicals that the brain will emit when you start a new romantic or sexual relationship. It’s an excess of dopamine, it’s something called PEA, that’s a shorthand, I’m not going to try to say the long version of it, but that would be sort of, beyond an endorphin, almost like an amphetamine that just gives you excitement and it comes with new love. And then there’s adrenaline of, wow, I wonder if they like me and this is kind of sneaky, it’s my own little secret. And so when you have that mixture of those brain chemicals, you will go through a period of time where you just think that this person will solve every life problem.
Hannah
Literally at a biological level, your body’s telling you that.
Juli
Yes. And it’s deceptive because it’ll last at most for 18 months. And so I’m sure you’ve seen this Joe, where you’ve seen somebody leave their marriage, be with this other person, almost like they lost their mind. Like, who is this? I knew this person before this happened. They’re like a kid, just like, I can’t stop myself. And then you let that play out you know, a year to 18 months later. And there’s a sense of regret once that wears off of, oh my goodness, I was so deceived. And look at the damage that I’ve done in my marriage with my kids, with my testimony, and I’ve made such a mess.
And so I say all that to say, when you experience this, you won’t necessarily always be logical of, yeah, I kind of knew this was going to happen. You might be swept up in even brain chemistry that makes this feel a lot more real than it is. And that’s why it’s so important to have that second step, Joe, which is don’t give the enemy a chance. And one of the best ways to not give the enemy a chance is to confess it. Because as long as it’s a secret, it feels forbidden, it feels mysterious, you can kind of harbor some flirtation and fantasy in your mind. But when you confess it to a counselor, a pastor, in some cases even to your spouse, then it’s like, okay, this isn’t fun anymore. Now I’m starting to deal with the real consequences of how dangerous this can be.
Hannah
Well, and if you’re saying it out loud, you know, to a trusted person, like you’re saying, like Juli, it could even remove a little bit of that narrative you have in your head of the romance of it once you’re saying it out loud. Like, I remember really vividly having a conversation with a friend who brought this up to me about someone that she was feeling this with and like not knowing what to do about it. And it was such a good conversation between the two of us. And by the end of it, she was like, he is kind of weird though, isn’t he? Like, he’s a little quirky. And we could almost laugh about it. It just added this reality once the two of us even could have that conversation. So I like you bringing that up as part of that.
Joe
I probably bring a version of this up almost every time we have a podcast, but I think that’s one of the reasons prayer is meant to be so effective and helpful. Because as you actually say these things out loud, right? And then you know that like the Lord’s hearing, you’re like, wait a minute, what am I even saying? Like, why would I want to blow all of this up to run after, wait, who, what? Oh my gosh, okay. Like it just puts your mind back at a more level-headed place.
Juli, you reminded me of this study I saw years ago that talked about how do you build momentum? And the short version of that was it has to be new, improved or improving. If you have new, improved or improving, you will build momentum. And I was listening to you and I’m like, my gosh, I think this applies to relationships. Because one of the reasons we’re often attracted to someone else is not because we’re necessarily even un-attracted to what we have, it’s just because it’s new. Like, it’s something to discover. It’s something to explore. I don’t understand how this person ticks. They think differently than I do, or they think the same as I do. And you just get enraptured with new. It’s why we get disenfranchised with our cars. A lot of times, we get rid of our car. They’re running fine. We liked them at one point. We’re just like, I just want something new. And so that whole piece of our mindset can apply here.
Joe
And it also can be I think one of the reasons why we can start to get a little disenfranchised with our spouse when you’re like, I know the sounds they make. I know that if you haven’t been both working on how do we improve or keep improving ourselves and each other and our relationship, it can start to feel like that momentum slows down because I’m okay with sitting on the couch and watching a sitcom again and eating fast food. And I’m okay that my body’s getting older and I’m okay that we haven’t changed anything in our routines and structures and we haven’t gone on an exciting date in a while and I’m okay and I’m okay and I’m okay, well we’re drifting into this lack of momentum. And then when something new pops up, our brains are like, well that could be cool. And if we’re comparing that to quote-unquote no momentum, it feels more lopsided. When all it is, is our brain chemistry saying, I like new and improved and improving.
Juli
Boy, that’s a good paradigm to think about. And so the question is then in your marriage, are you working on new and improving? And what is it? New, improved and improving?
Joe
New, improved, or improving. And this person that went so far, his point wasn’t about marketing, but he went so far. It’s like, think about toilet paper. When’s the last time you bought toilet paper where the packaging didn’t say, like, “more ply, softer, now 20 % more?” Like, it’s because there’s some, like, it’s, quote, I know there’s different, trust me, I could go on about just different types of toilet paper, but it’s just toilet paper. And how much in a roll is really just relative to the price. And so like, but there’s something about seeing like, cool, they finally gave me more for my money that you’re like, I’m drawn to that one. Same thing with toothpaste. And it’s like, we are drawn to this concept, but it applies to the deeper things of life too, like our relationships.
Juli
Yeah.
Juli (20:02.658)
Let me pause here just for a minute because if you are wrestling with attraction, desire, or just feeling disconnected in your marriage, that can be a sign of something deeper that needs attention. And we put together a brand new Hot Topic Kit called Building a Great Sex Life to help you work through those feelings through a biblical lens and to rebuild true intimacy with your spouse. In this kit, you’ll find teaching and wisdom and practical application through lots of content like vlogs, Q&A videos, podcast clips, and full episodes. It is the best content that we’ve created over the last 10 years on the topic of how to build a healthy, biblical sex life within marriage. It’s honest, practical, and grounded in God’s design for love and covenant. You can get this hot topic kit for free if you are an Authentic Intimacy member, or just $15 if you’re not. We’ll drop a link to that in our show notes, or you can just head to authenticintimacy.com to learn more. Now let’s get back to my conversation with Joe and Hannah.
Juli
I think there’s something underneath this that we have to talk about. You rarely are attracted to someone else while you’re still attracted to your spouse. You know, you might appreciate someone else where you’re like, that person’s good looking, or I like their sense of humor, but you’re not drawn to someone else in terms of this could be a dangerous relationship unless there’s some level of dissatisfaction with where I currently am. To your point about the car, like I could see all the car commercials in the world, and I’m not a car person so maybe it’s a bad example, but I don’t really want that other car until I get into mine and it keeps breaking down or the air conditioning is not working. It’s like now you have my attention, and I think this is part of recognizing not just when you’ll be attracted to somebody else but when you’re going to have that tension in your marriage where you’re not fun to be around, and I’m not necessarily always drawn to you and I don’t always appreciate your physical qualities the way I did when we first got married, or when we were dating and we’re not romancing each other. And you don’t make me feel loved and special like I once did.
And so almost always when you hear a story of an affair or somebody leaving a marriage because they’re drawn to someone else, it’s not just what I’m going to, but what I want to get away from, and the need that’s not being met in my current relationship. Maybe it’s you have a whole history of conflicts that you’ve never resolved, and they’ve just been piling up, piling up, piling up. And now you’re like, I just want a fresh start with somebody.
Joe
I’m a really big fan of a deep dive of Ephesians 5 when it talks about husbands and wives with this concept, because there’s a selfless side to this, which is very, very hard to swallow. I understand that. But a lot of times when we hear things like, that passage starts with wives and husbands submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Then it gets into wives submit to your husbands as the church does to Christ. And it says husbands love the wives as, with all of your heart, in the same way that Christ gave himself up for the church. So there’s all of this sacrifice, all of this submission, all of this giving your best of one another.
And in our weak moments, Juli, like you’re describing, what we accidentally hear is, my wife should be doing this for me, or my husband should be doing this for me, and because they’re not, I’m getting more and more dissatisfied. And that passage does not address, here’s how you should view your spouse. The passage addresses, here’s how you should be loving your spouse. And it’s the same thing that’s in almost all of our wedding vows. Like, I’m forsaking all others to give myself in sickness and health for better, for poorer, all those different things. Like, I’m giving myself to you. So when we get to this place of, well, they’re not doing enough for me. They’re not, it’s like we’ve reversed. I signed up to love you, to choose to love you, to commit myself to you, which means, building all of those things that you’re talking about. How do I begin to romance this person? How do I discover more and more what makes them tick? I’m not sitting back waiting for them to be the perfect spouse. I’m running after them as a loving spouse. And by the way, it’s probably the foundation of how you rebuild if you find yourself at what feels like a desperate place.
Juli
Yeah, it’s interesting. I noticed this about Ephesians five recently, what it says to husbands. And I really kind of camped in there for about a month. It says, love your wife as you love your own body. None of you ever hated their own body, but you feed it, you take care of it. Your wife is a member of your body, just like the church, like we are members of Christ’s body. And when you think about that, it’s like, like, sit in that metaphor for a minute: How often do you think of your spouse as being outside of you and meant to serve you instead of your spouse actually being part of you? You know, it says, if you love your wife, you love yourself. I don’t know how that hits you, but it took me like a month to sit in that and be like, this is not about loving somebody external from me. It’s actually loving someone that God has united to me.
So Joe, know you and I have like a sports history. You know, like I’m, I always have some sort of injury going on and then I’m nursing, and when a part of my body hurts, I don’t ignore it. I don’t get mad at it. I slow down. I, I sit, I, you know, like get therapy on it or whatever is needed to restore that part. And when we think about that metaphor, if your marriage is suffering and you’re not happy with your spouse and your spouse’s not quote unquote meeting your needs instead of sort of amputating that part of your body, what would it look like to be, how do I care for that part of my body that isn’t working? How do we attend to it?
Joe
Yeah, I love that thought because at least stereotypically, maybe none of our listeners live in a stereotype world, but at least stereotypically, when we get frustrated with our partner, we almost avoid them because we’re like, well, they’re becoming this or we’re not connecting or we’re not clicking. And so we’ll, I’m sorry, I’m busy tonight, I can’t hang out. And we start purposefully building these individualistic lives, which is the opposite of what God is trying to say.
And so maybe we don’t like, Juli, I wouldn’t amputate my husband, I wouldn’t amputate my wife. But are we going to let gangrene kill it? I mean, are we going to let it slowly decay?
Juli
Neglect.
Joe
And suddenly we have to have it amputated? And we’re like, well, what happened?
Juli
We fell out of love.
Joe
Like, yeah. it’s like, you don’t have to, because the opposite is almost the opposite of this question. It’s not if in your marriage, will you find the other person a little dissatisfying, or a little bit unattractive or wonder if you should have married them? It’s when you’re gonna have that emotion. And when you have that emotion, you fight for it because back to the athlete metaphor, the more you work through those things, the stronger, or more fit or whatever you’re going to be on the other side of that, the healthier you’re going to be on the other side of that. So many marriages when they hit that bump, of struggle, if they fight through it, if they pursue each other, if they pursue God in the middle of it, they come out on the other side going like, this is so much better than I ever thought it could be. But it’s because they fought through that and they subconsciously are proving a real love for one another that then builds into both of them.
Hannah
So if we go back to the very beginning of this conversation, of saying, what do I do when I’m attracted to someone else? How would you guys want to encourage our listeners, or equip them so that they’re ready when it does happen instead of just reacting in the moment?
Joe
I would say awkwardness with a friend or a stranger is better than pain in your marriage. So over the years, there have been rooms that I’ll walk into where I’ll dap up the guys and give them the handshake across the chest and then hug them with one arm or I’ll hug everybody in the room and then I’ve not hugged someone. And maybe it feels weird or maybe it feels cold. And I’ve even had one of those people ask like, are we okay? And I’ll say something like, I’m fine. Like, I’ll just kind of like blow it off. But I’m like, I need to not physically engage this person at least today because of where my head’s at. It’s not in a good space. So I have to protect that. It is not worth it. And awkwardness in those moments is worth not blowing up my marriage.
I won’t meet, actually, I personally won’t meet one-on-one with a woman in a place like a restaurant. It’s too… It’s too much like a date. And it’s not. You’re like, that’s ridiculous, Joe. And to a certain degree, you’re right. I can sit down, I guarantee with you, I can sit down with any woman one time over a meal and not blow up my marriage. But I don’t want to go, but two times is fine. And three times is fine. And four times is fine. And eventually you’re like, we do this every Tuesday. And eventually it’s like, well, you want to go on a walk afterward. eventually it turns, that, cause I could point, I won’t for confidentiality, but I could point to at least five marriages. That’s where the divorce started. Like I met with this person, we had lunch, we connected, we built chemistry, suddenly this, suddenly we were sharing. They understood me more than my spouse and all of a sudden they find themselves completely… Like not having lunch with somebody might be a safeguard for you to just not find yourself in that situation as an example.
Juli
Yeah, I would say, you know, right along with that, you know, a few phrases from scripture that are helpful. One is do not be deceived. And that is like all of our scripture, when it talks about the enemy schemes and temptation, do not be deceived. So the first thing is really bringing to light the lie that the enemy is telling me, or even that my own flesh is telling me. And some of that we already covered, which is why I’m so thankful that you all listen to Java with Juli and other podcasts or sermons like this because we need those constant reminders of the deception of the enemy that he will tell you that love is all about how you feel about finding your soulmate, about finding that perfect person, that people fall out of love and marriage and marriage is a covenant. It’s not about how you feel towards each other. It’s what you choose. And so do not be deceived.
The second thing is, I already mentioned it, but don’t give the enemy an opportunity. Don’t give your flesh an opportunity. And that’s kind of what you’re saying there, Joe, whether it’s, can’t go out to lunch with this person or I’m not going to give this person a hug. Or I think from a female perspective, a lot of times it’s not the physical, it’s nurturing the thought that this person would take better care of me or understand me more. And you kind of slide into that emotional intimacy. It’s like, nope, I’m not going there. I’m not spending time with that person. I don’t necessarily have to tell them why, but I just, I’m going to change what gym I go to. I’m going to change what service at church I go to. I’m going to change my work environment because I don’t want to give the devil an opportunity. And I think this is something that is so unpopular to say, but I just said this to the Lord two or three days ago as I was struggling with just different temptations. I don’t trust myself. I don’t. I don’t trust my heart. And there’s certain temptations I have where I’m like, I know if I’m in that situation, my flesh will take over and God help me, I don’t trust myself.
Joe (32:29.794)
The heart is deceitful above all else, the scripture says. And that’s exactly right. Our desires are often liars of some kind. I have this saying in our house, my, even 11 year old daughter, if I say something like, well, you know what I say? And she goes, yeah, dad. And then she’ll repeat it, which is: emotions are phenomenal indicators, but terrible masters.
Juli
Wow.
Joe
And so we need to like listen.
Hannah
And that’s a powerful 11-year-old quote.
Juli
Yeah it is, it is!
Joe
And thankfully she knows it because it’s just, she’s especially getting into the age she is, like she’s experiencing more and more and more of that, but she’s already quickly learning like, well, just because I feel this way about someone or about a situation doesn’t mean that’s accurate or true or something to run after.
And we do this all the time. Like I can be very emotional on the road and think someone’s an absolute moron, and emotionally go, you know what, if I tap the edge of their bumper, they’re going to go off into that ditch and that would feel so good.
Juli
I’ve never had that thought, I think that is… is that a guy thought?
Hannah
Joe hasn’t either. He’s never.
Joe
But to that point, I’ve never done that actually. Because even though I have that emotion, that’s foolishness. You know, have I thought other women are cute? Sure. And it’s foolish for me to do anything about that. Like, our emotions, again, are terrible masters. And so just because you’re tempted with something… I had a, one of the people that came into my office was somebody that was trying to argue with me about the wisdom of open relationships.
Juli
Mmmm.
Joe
They weren’t married, but they were like, why would I ever when I can basically sleep around and connect with all these different people? What an amazing experience this would be. And they are a nutritionist and a fitness instructor. And I looked at them and I said, isn’t it basically your job to tell people that just because you feel something or want something, it’s not healthy for you? And they just gave me this blank stare. Like that just hit them like a ton of bricks. They were like, dang it.
Like, my world exists to tell people, don’t listen to your desires and what you want, because it’s healthier for you to do this. I said, right, God is saying, your heart is deceitful. What you want is not what’s best for you. Trust me, I will take you toward life. So whenever we have these attractions, it’s not your heart saying, this is what you’re supposed to have. It’s just an emotional response to something or someone that’s attractive that means, really nothing. And your marriage and the fruit of it and building that and pursuing the Lord in it is what’s going to actually give you life.
Juli
Absolutely. at the end of the day, investing in your marriage is one of the healthiest safeguards you can have. Investing in your relationship with God, investing in your marriage. We don’t just want to wait around and be like, oh yeah, someday I’ll be attracted to someone. I hope I’ll stand when that temptation comes. No, you prepare for it now by investing in what is going to ground you. And it’s like…once you’ve been married a while, yes, you go through those seasons where you might not really enjoy each other that much, and you’re more vulnerable to temptation. But when you endure through it and you keep investing in your marriage, you get to a place where it’s like, I’ve built so much history with this other person, and we’ve been through so much together and we’ve resolved so much together. We’ve learned to trust each other so much that nothing seems like it can really hold a candle to that.
And that’s the same with your relationship with God. You build this history with the Lord where you’re like, I know what it is to delight in Him and to be in fellowship with Him and unity with Him. I don’t want anything to take me out of that.
Joe
The English language does a disservice to the word love because it’s so much more than romantic love. That’s a beautiful thing, a wonderful thing, and should be a part of a healthy marriage. But there’s the brotherly love that I care for you, I walk with you, I will help you, I just enjoy you as a person. And then there’s the agape love that in the midst of anything that we go through, I am here for you unconditionally. That even if you can’t give me anything in return, to the point of you being…sick and in a coma in a hospital, that I’m here to support and love and walk with you through this. That’s when love is the richest.
It’s easy to love somebody when they look cute and they’re treating you nicely and you’re at an environment that’s just really, really fun. You’re like, I love this person so much. But I remember when I had a tailbone surgery and I had an open wound, I felt ridiculously loved that my wife who hates anything like medical and blood or whatever was like helping me with that wound and like walking me through the recovery. I’m like, it wasn’t a cute moment. It wasn’t a romantic moment.
Hannah
Wouldn’t make a great movie plot.
Joe
No, but let me tell you, I feel like I knew then that my gosh, does my wife love me, to be willing to do that for me. So it’s when it’s difficult or when it’s hard that love is proven and felt the deepest. And that’s where I think God’s trying to bring us to that richness of this is what it could really look like.
Hannah
Juli, a verse that I even know I’ve heard you talk about often is in Proverbs 18 and verse 10, where it talks about that the name of the Lord is a fortified tower, the righteous run to it and are safe. And man, I think about all this conversation you guys brought up today. It’s like, what a beautiful picture of safety, like of that refuge that we stand in and this like beauty of this strong tower of safety. And I just think of that even amidst temptation, even amidst dissatisfaction in marriage or struggles that we’re having. I just love that beautiful picture of what God is offering to us and inviting us into. Yeah, and I think you both did such a beautiful job of explaining what that looks like practically, but also just the reality of spiritually what that is, what we’re offered with God. So, beautiful.
Juli
Yeah, that’s a great landing point for us Hannah.
Hannah
So if you’ve enjoyed this conversation or other Java with Juli’s, we’re so glad. We just love that you guys are here. We love that you’re listening and bringing up these really hard, heavy, good, difficult conversations. It’s what Juli loves to do and it’s why this podcast is here. And if you’re listening, it must be one of the reasons why you join every week. So we would love to hear your thoughts. You can always send us an email, go to authenticintimacy.com and connect with us.
And we always love getting a rating or a view or a comment of any kind in the podcast app. However you’re listening, you can just click the little stars there. Personally, I would suggest a five stars, but you do whatever your heart tells you.
Joe
But the heart is deceitful…
Hannah
Hahaha… and if you found this conversation helpful, we also hope that you would share it with a friend. You know, all of us today, the three of us that were here talked about different conversations we’ve had in our lives with friends who have experienced this emotion, this feeling of being attracted to someone else and how helpful it was to talk about it with someone else. So send it to a friend. That would be a great step. And Juli, do you have any other kind of good follow-up resources for our listeners after this conversation today?
Juli (40:03.822)
I’ll mention our online book studies; those are opening up soon, and they really are a great way to continue conversations like this in community. Because I think sometimes you have a struggle like this, a secret like this, even something in your past that may have happened, and you’re like, I have no safe place to really bring this before the Lord and understand what’s going on in my marriage or what’s going on in my heart. And boy, online book studies are just a great place to do that. You can find the link in our show notes to see which ones we’re offering this summer and to get signed up.
And then of course, we always have resources at authenticintimacy.com, blogs and Q&A videos, as well as other podcast episodes. And we’ll be linked to some of those in our show notes and the book, 25 Questions You’re Afraid to Ask About Love, and Intimacy, which deals with this question, and 24 others.
Hannah
Many other good ones.
Juli
Hey, so thanks for joining us. Thank you, Joe and Hannah, for being part of this conversation. We look forward to coffee with you next time for more Java with Juli.