You believe God loves you—but you’re afraid to trust Him with your most painful places.
In this conversation, discover how surrender is one of the most courageous acts of trust—and the beginning of real healing. Plus . . . it’s book launch week! 🎉
Prefer to listen? Listen to the full episode here.
Juli
Hey friend, it’s Juli. If you are a regular here at Java with Juli, I know that means you care about seeing lives change through the hope and healing of Jesus. Boy, so many people feel stuck in shame or alone. Maybe you can relate to that because they haven’t been able to make sense of God and sexuality. Well, at Authentic Intimacy, we want to come alongside them with biblically grounded resources like this podcast to help people reclaim God’s design for sexuality in their lives, but we cannot do this without you. So this month, we are asking God to bring 200 new monthly donors to help us continue this work at Authentic Intimacy. And I want to ask you, would you become one of them? As a thank you, I want to send you a copy of my new book, Surrender Sexuality, and just visit Authenticintimacy.com/give to become part of the work that God is doing through Java with Juli and Authentic Intimacy.
Alright, let’s head to the coffee shop. I think sometimes with our sexuality, we feel like he doesn’t follow us in our bedroom. Like God is everywhere, but he doesn’t know my thoughts about this or he’s not with me when I’m struggling or he wasn’t there when I was wounded or hurt. God has always been there.
Juli (01:22.286)
Hey, friend, welcome to Java with Juli. I am Juli Slattery, the host of this podcast. And what we do here is a production of Authentic Intimacy, which is a ministry helping you make sense of God and sexuality. And we have been in a series talking about the new book that just is releasing this week, July 1st, called Surrendered Sexuality. And so glad to continue to talk about some of the concepts in that book, talk about what it means to surrender your sexuality and help me impact some of those concepts today is again, Joe Caruso. So welcome back, Joe.
Joe
Thank you very much and congratulations. That’s so awesome. 14th book? You’re like 14% of the way there then. You’re gonna write a hundred books, right?
Juli (02:06.555)
No. my goodness. Can’t even imagine.
Joe
Oh man, I gotta be honest, I’m like intimidated or I’m impressed because as a guy that has a few ideas written down of, should write a book on this one day, but have yet to even start them, to have written 14, that’s a big deal. So, you know, maybe it feels normal to you, but it’s big, it’s awesome.
Juli
Thanks, that’s super encouraging. it’s like having kids, you just have them one at a time, right? You just write books one at a time. And I always feel like the book I just wrote is gonna be the last one. So maybe it will be.
Joe
Maybe. Or maybe you’re 14% of the way there.
Juli
You never know. You never know what God has. But yeah, so for people who haven’t listened to you or seen you on the podcast before, let me give you a little bit of background. Joe is a pastor here in Akron, Ohio at Grace Church, and I’ve gotten to know him over the years. Joe’s ministry is overlapping, and he’s such a relatable guy. Joe, you have so much ministry experience. People, I think, that have followed Authentic Intimacy, Java with Juli for a while are used to Hannah Nitz launching books with me.
Joe
Hannah’s awesome.
Juli
Yes, and Hannah will continue to be on the podcast. She’s gonna be on with me in a few weeks again. But you know, the more we thought about it, the more we realized we are thankful to have so many men engaging with us, reading our books, listening to Java with Juli that are like, hey, we need to have somebody like Joe on. And I also appreciate the pastoral lens that you bring in these conversations.
Joe
Well thanks. Yeah, it’s fun to be in these conversations and I know, I mean, I have those, you assume certain resources that are voiced by women or that must not be for me. But I know better because I’ve, like you said, we’ve known each other for a long time and I’ve engaged with all these resources now for years. And so I’m happy to, if this is even a small validation that men can explore these resources, please take us up on that. Cause they’re so helpful and they drive you right to Jesus and right to the heart of what we’re going through.
Juli
Well, that’s what we hope to do. And for people who have been listening to Java with Juli for a long time, we also have the news that we are now a video podcast. So this is video as well, which means I have to pay attention to what I’m wearing and makeup and all that good stuff. But thanks for joining us, of you who are on video. But if you are an audio listener and you want to check out video, you can find that at Spotify or YouTube. So yeah, that’s new and exciting.
Joe
It’s super fun. Well, this episode is actually following, you guys just had an episode where you were talking at Reclaim. Yes. Yeah, and so if you wanna see this talk, you have to go see this talk. Like, that’s not a simple promotion, that’s not they’re telling Joe, know, hey, should go see it. I’m telling you, go listen and watch that talk. You can find that on Spotify or YouTube as well. But this conversation will pick up off of that. And really diving into this whole idea of what it means to surrender, which is so hard for so many of us. Surrender feels like something that’s impossible for some of our personalities. But it’s incredibly important. So why would that be a key topic that you wrote an entire book about?
Juli (05:09.026)
Yeah, I guess it’s been my journey as a follower of Christ and I think it’s really all of our journeys as a follower of Christ because the moment we give our lives to Christ, like we even engage in the sacrament of baptism that symbolizes I’m dead to myself and I’m alive in Christ. But few, if any of us ever feel like we get to the place where we can say confidently what Paul said, where he said, like, I’m no longer living.
I’ve been crucified with Christ, it is Christ who lives in me. And so you are essentially on a process, a journey that is meant to be a progressive experience of surrender. That even though Jesus owns all of us when we give our lives to Him, there is a guided journey of Christian maturity that is, now He wants this part of me. Like now, now He’s dealing with this part of me. Now He’s showing me this part of my heart that is still full of pride or sin that I need to surrender to Him. And what I’ve experienced in ministry as well is that there are some pockets of our lives that are more difficult to surrender than others. And for many people, sexuality is one of those. I think also, Joe, like, this topic captures me because there really is no answer other than surrender. People will come to me with different sexual issues or questions or pain points and you can give them advice or try this or that, but true change can only happen through surrender.
Joe
Wow. I feel like that’s the crux of the gospel, which is your whole point, right? Like if we don’t give our lives over to Christ, if we don’t lose our life for His sake, how could we ever find it? And so why that’s profound when it’s right there in front of us in the scripture, maybe it’s because of the things that we just don’t want to give up, but it is profound because we hold on so tightly to these things that we think we have to keep secret or these things that we don’t want people to know, but I love what you’re getting at here with all this surrender. Now, it’s one thing to say we have to surrender, but maybe we don’t know exactly where we’re holding onto things. So what might that sound like if we were struggling with giving something up?
Juli
Yeah, so it often looks or sounds like, you know, something like, I know God is good and He’s loving, but I can’t reconcile myself to the fact that the scripture says that sex is meant to be between a man and a woman in marriage. How could a loving God say that? And so there’s a wall of, I want to love God, but not in this area. Or another way might be, hey, I know God calls me to purity, but I have been looking at porn since I’ve been nine years old. And it’s an on and off struggle. I’ve asked him to take it away. He hasn’t. And I don’t even know if I’m a Christian. And I certainly don’t feel like God could love me or approve of me.
And people can go decades with that sort of wall between them and God. Or it can be like, I gave my life to Christ as a child, but I’ve never been able to reconcile how he allowed me to be abused by my father as a child. How could an all-powerful, all-knowing God not have stopped that if he loves me? So, can give example after example, a parent who says, you know, I love my trans child, but I feel like I have to choose between my child and God. So, for a lot of people, sexuality is kind of a tension point of the understanding the goodness of God, trusting Him, fully giving your life to Him without feeling like He’s going to take something away from you that is essential to happiness and well-being. So that’s kind of what the crux of the issue and those are a lot of different scenarios, but what they have in common is sexuality is a barrier between them and taking their next step in intimacy with God.
Joe (09:11.298)
Well I love what you say in the book that sexuality is never a neutral issue with your relationship with God. And I think it’s because of all the things you just mentioned, because we maybe wanna try, we wanna maybe push it to the side and I can have my sexuality over here, but then I wanna go explore and see who God is and see who Jesus is. But we can’t do it. We’re always gonna be at a full tension.
So if there’s these areas of our life, especially in our sexuality, that we don’t want to give over, that we don’t want to surrender, what do we tend to do instead of that?
Juli
So a couple of things we tend to do, you just described one of them, which is compartmentalize. And I think some of us want to say, okay, this 90% of me, I will give completely to the Lord, but this 10 % over here, like I just want to put it in a little box and I don’t bring it to church with me. I don’t pray about it. Like I don’t want to meditate on what scripture says I should do with it because it’s just too messy. I just, yeah, I can’t do that. So that’s sort of that compartmentalization. Another thing that we can do is we can have a controlled approach where it’s like, I can make myself good enough. Like I can overcome this through willpower. you know, willpower can only take you so far. a filter on your computer and your device is a great idea, but that’s not discipleship.
That’s not surrender. That’s just a step or tool. And so we can really try to train our thoughts and avoid the wrong things. And that’s not bad, but again, that wall is still going to be there because you have a fear that if I fail, then all is lost. And so it’s more of a legalism or behavioral approach. And then I think the third thing a lot of Christians do is they just compromise. And so they say, I want to believe that God is loving.
Juli (11:12.454)
And I’m going to give myself the permission to worship a form of God that will agree with everything that I think is just and right and loving. And we see a lot of this in our day and age.
Joe
We really do. We really, really do. There’s a common thread through these, that is so simple, and of course it leads to surrender, but if Jesus calls us to follow Him, none of these are following. The compartmentalization is, well, I’m not gonna give you that area of my life, I’m not gonna follow you here. The control is quite literally the opposite. I’ll just handle it. So God may be where I need you, but I’ll control these areas of my life. And then even the compromise is, well, I basically don’t want to follow you in all areas of my life. And so what’s interesting is we struggle with those things. Many of us would call ourselves followers of Christ, and yet usually the way we deal with these things is by not following.
Juli
Yeah, boy, that’s profound and it’s convicting. When we read the Gospels, there were thousands of people that followed Jesus when He was giving them bread to eat and performing miracles and healing people. But then He would say these hard statements and the crowds would leave because they were offended by Him.
And then He made statements about like, narrow is the road and few find it. Wide is the road that leads to destruction? Even turning to his disciples and say, everybody else is left, are you gonna leave too? And I think so often in Western Christianity, we let it sit that, we can follow Jesus with the masses and it’s not gonna cost us something. It’s not gonna cost us to surrender and lay our lives down. But the scripture tells us differently that if you are truly following Christ, if you are truly seeking Him, then it will not just cost you everything or something, but in essence, it costs us everything at the end of the day.
Joe
I love how the disciples respond to Jesus’s question. Like, you’re gonna leave me too? And well, where else would we go? You have the words of life. And that’s what’s fascinating about these quote unquote hard things that Jesus say is that’s what leads to life. It’s not just, you know, now you have to get behind the plow and start plowing and try harder and do all these things. Like, no, I wanna do something drastically, transformatively different in you. And so we have to give ourselves over to him.
Juli
And I think what’s also fascinating about that, Joe, is that they didn’t leave Jesus because they believe Jesus had something better to offer them. You know, it wasn’t just out of obedience because I should, but I’ve lived some life without you and I’ve lived some life with you. And even though this is hard and offensive and costly, I know there’s more life with you than without you. Like you ultimately want to give me something, not take something away.
Joe
So this word surrender, it’s probably lots of connotations in people’s minds as they hear that. What do you mean by that? What do we need to do if we’re gonna surrender this area of our lives?
Juli
It’s interesting that you say that. I was taking some people through the pilot study of this and a few of them got really hung up on that word, surrender. Like, it just feels like giving up. Like, it feels like you’re defeated. And surrender can be that. You know, I think in the best way we see that happen in Paul’s life in Romans 7 where he’s like, I’ve tried to do the right thing, but I can’t do the right thing.
Juli (14:40.398)
Like, I’m at the point where I like hate myself because I want to follow God, but I find myself doing the thing I hate. And he comes to a place of, know, like, what a desperate person I am. And then he says, who can save me from this life of sin? And then he says, praise be to Christ Jesus. And then he begins to write in Romans eight about the freedom that we can find through the Holy Spirit in Christ Jesus. And so I think there is a sense to which all of us are probably on a journey where we have to try all these other things first. Because they feel safer.
Joe
Yeah, Peter did a version of that when he was called, right? So here’s Peter, this professional fisherman, and he’s trying and trying and trying. He knows quote unquote what he’s doing. He’s doing all the quote unquote right things. He’s trying to control the situation. And then he surrenders Jesus, who from Peter’s point of view, probably doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He says, well, cast your nets one more time on that side. Peter’s like, fine. I surrender. I’ll do what you want. And instead of finding empty nets, what does he find? Life-giving life-filled nets, because when we surrender over to Jesus, He knows what we need and where things are.
Juli
Yeah, and so I think we all have to go through that process of kind of fighting surrender until in God’s grace, He brings us to a desperation point. In your marriage, in your loneliness, in your shame, maybe you found yourself doing things you can’t believe you’re doing. You’re like, how did it get this out of hand? And then we come to the end of ourself and we’re like, all right, Lord, only you.
Juli (16:20.782)
But the picture that I really like of surrender is, you know, if you’ve ever had surgery, you essentially surrender your body to a physician.
Joe
Yeah, you sure do.
Juli
And you let them put you to sleep and do whatever they’re going to do to you. And you do it because you trust their credentials and you have a hope that you’re going to wake up better.
Joe (16:35.822)
Yeah, that’s an excellent metaphor. I’ve had a few surgeries and it definitely feels that way. You’re like, I’m pretty sure I’m not going to be in heaven in a moment. Yeah. So I’m thinking I can trust you. And I think that gives us a great picture because Juli, with the idea of surrendering to God, is he just trying to break us down or is he inviting us to something better?
Juli
Yeah, I mean, both. I mean, he’s breaking us down to get to the place where we’ll actually receive something better. Because I think as long as we can do it in our own strength, we won’t surrender. Maybe there are some people who would, but I know I won’t. know, like I have to be at the place where I recognize as much as I beat my head up against this wall, it’s not going to change. But as soon as I get on my knees, wow, like God is real.
I think we’re all on that journey of, again, hopefully having more and more of a history with God that we trust Him to the place where we are willing to just put our lives on that surgery table and say, you know what you’re doing, I don’t, please heal me.
Joe
Yeah, how do we build that trust? Because that’s probably at least one of the reasons why people won’t surrender over to God is that they’re like, this is an untrustworthy surgeon. How do we build that trust so that we’re willing to give it over to him?
Juli
Yeah, I think there are a few things. think number one, it can be helpful to name why we don’t trust because often we have an experience in our past that the enemy has really used to build up kind of accusation against God. Like, he doesn’t want your best. Like, he didn’t answer this prayer. Where was he when this happened?
Juli (18:18.274)
And so I think calling that out, identifying it and really saying, don’t trust God because I’m afraid this is going to happen again. Like there’s something about naming that and bringing that even before God that I think is a huge part of healing. But I think it’s also, know, God just, He says, He knows how weak we are. He says, try me. He’s like, just try me. I’ve seen it my own life and I’ve seen it in so many other people’s lives. When you just have a tiny bit of faith, faith enough to say, God, if you’re really there, would you meet me? Like, would you show me? And he works. And I think particularly when we’re new in that journey, like he often works quickly and very visibly so that we know he does hear my prayer. And then as you go on that journey longer, sometimes he expands your faith by, I’m not gonna answer the way you think I am, or I’m not gonna answer in the timing that you want me to, but he says, taste and see that I’m good. Like, just try me, ask me, like just with a little bit of faith. So I think that’s a huge step for us.
Joe
This idea of faith, I think, is pivotal in this conversation because the power of faith is not in our faith. The power of faith is what we have our faith in. And the more that we realize what we have our faith in is trustworthy, that’s where the practice of expressing that faith really, really grows. And so, like many of us, most of us, if we learned how to ride a bike, those first couple of times you get on the bike, you’re like, well, in theory, it looks like bicycles work.
And I’m pretty sure that I should be able to figure out how to balance on two wheels. But you’re wobbly the first few times. And you might even put some extra pads on or like a helmet, even if you’re just gonna ride down the driveway, because you’re like, I don’t know that I fully trust it, but I trust it enough to get on the bike. But after a while, I mean, you just get on a bike, you don’t even think about it. Sometimes you ride with no hands and you’re riding up and down in the terrains that you shouldn’t and you’re trying all kinds of tricks and you’re doing all these different things because you trust in the bicycle and the physics that keep it up.
Joe (20:25.334)
Our relationship with God is so similar, the more that we experience that God is indeed safe, that He’s trustworthy, that He’s faithful to be with you and walk with you, that He’s faithful to keep drawing you near, that’s when our faith grows, when we realize, I can give all of my life to Him.
Juli
Yeah. And I don’t know, Joe, if any of us like in a moment come to the place where we truly are ready to give it all.
Joe
Sure.
Juli
You know, like we can say it, but then it’s like the next season kind of exposes a new fear or brings us back to an old pattern. And then we have to remember that surrender again and again. But I know in my life, one thing that was really powerful when I was wrestling with surrendering my life to the Lord in with difficult aspects to surrender. I read a book by Andrew Murray called Absolute Surrender. And he says in that book, he says, when you surrender to God, even as weak as you might be, like, His sign seals it and then it’s His job to make it happen. And that was so important to me because I don’t have the strength in myself to walk out the surrender. Like, all I have is the strength to do is to eke out, like a very weak, cowardly “God, like, take me, like, I want to be yours”. And then his work through the Holy Spirit is to begin through the days and weeks and months and years to actualize that surrender. And that was such a calming thing to me that I didn’t have to make it all happen. I just had to be willing.
And so for the person who’s listening or watching and is thinking, like, have this thing in my life that I don’t know how to surrender, like, I don’t know how to get rid of the struggle or the shame or whatever it might be. God doesn’t want you to work it out. He just wants you to give it to Him and let Him do it, which is so free.
Joe (22:30.99)
Yeah, if that doesn’t hit our viewers and our listeners right in the heart, I don’t know what, I mean, I’m ready to like pick up the book and dive in Juli, like, because this does, it hits us wherever we’re at. If we’re being honest with ourselves, like you said, there’s always something more that we realize, no, I’ve still had onto this and I need to unpack that and I need to keep giving this over, especially if I want to see the health and the life that Jesus offers. That’s so, good.
Well, is there anything that you’re like, like what would be your like one line or like this is why I’m so excited for people to read what got us placed on your heart in this book.
Juli
Yeah. The one liner is, you know, like the phrase that keeps coming to my mind is like, I think it’s Paul who wrote it. He’s like, we are ambassadors, like essentially begging people to be reconciled to God. And we have a ministry of reconciliation. And while God is working that out of my own life, I just have such a passion to say, brother or sister, I don’t want sexuality to be a wall in your relationship with God anymore. You know, like, I don’t want you to feel like because of this one issue, I can’t trust that God is good or I don’t believe He’ll receive me or accept me or I don’t think I’ll ever experience His love. Like, those are lies of the enemy. And so, my passion in talking about sexuality is not that I love talking about sexuality, it’s that I love talking about things in such a way that people know that God loves them and He cares about them. And what He has to say and what He wants to do in your life will ultimately impact every room of your life. Like every secret, like He’s there. And I love Psalm 139 where David is saying, where can I go from your presence?
Juli (24:28.722)
But I think sometimes with our sexuality, we feel like He doesn’t follow us in our bedroom. Like God is everywhere, but he doesn’t know my thoughts about this or he’s not with me when I’m struggling or he wasn’t there when I was wounded or hurt. God has always been there. And so the call is reconciling his presence with what you’re dealing with, know, like recognizing that he’s there, inviting his help.
Joe
I can’t wait to see what the fruit is of this work. The fruit is of how God has laid this on your heart, how he’s laid it out in this book and how it’ll impact so many people. I’m very excited to see how this continues to show up in people’s lives where they least expect it. And like you said, start to find a fresh or brand new reconciliation with God. It’s gonna be awesome.
Juli
I hope and pray, it feels like a very human effort, Joe, to write a book about something like this. I almost feel like I wish I had 10 more years to work on it. Because how do you put in human words just the love of God, especially around these complex topics that for so many people represents a lot of pain.
Joe
You’re right. This, as a pastor, I don’t want to put a percentage on it, but I bet this is no less than half to even three quarters of the source of where people’s pain come from when they’re figuring out the next life choice or why they’ve blown something up in their life or why they feel separated from God, like you said, the wall that seems to be there. So I think that’s why I’m so excited for the same reason you said, I want to see people reconciled to God. And so for people to maybe see or sense or be exposed to something that can tear down those walls, tear down those barriers is going to be awesome.
Juli (26:08.31)
In your ministry, what have you seen in terms of what has been effective in people really reconciling God with a sexual struggle?
Joe
Yeah, I think that what I love about the Christian faith, what I love about walking with Jesus is it often sounds so simple, but almost to the point of there’s no way that’s it. And where I’ve seen the most transformation and the most victory are people that are willing to start just regularly trying to connect with the heart of God. Digging into the Scriptures, being open and honest in their prayer life, being willing to step into the light with other people, because if they’re trying to hold it,
Like you said, the things that hold us back from surrender, but if they’re trying to hold on to themselves, if they’re trying to control the narrative, if they’re trying to say, well, I’ll let this one person or just God know this, but those that are truly willing, like you said, to surrender it over, that’s where I see the victory. If they repeat into the office, it’s kind of to say, like, I’ve seen these victories. I feel closer to God. I finally sense that He’s with me and is helping me heal and all the rest. But where I see the repeat visitors are saying, I’m still struggling with this, it’s, almost formulaically because they’re holding on. There’s something, there’s someone they won’t tell, there’s something they won’t do, there’s something that they can’t give over to the Lord. And no matter how desperately they want it, they won’t let go enough to grab a hold of their savior. And so I think looking back at the quote unquote data of how I’ve experienced it with other folks, that’s why I’m excited about what this is getting into.
Juli
Yeah, it really does come down to surrender. Well, thank you for unpacking this with me.
Joe
Oh, so fun.
Juli
Yeah, and we will continue to have some conversations on the podcast over the next several weeks about surrender sexuality. As you mentioned, our listeners and viewers got to sample Reclaim, the opening session of Reclaim last week.
Juli (28:06.542)
And you’re also going to get to see or listen to that I did at Reclaim with Jackie Hill Perry and with Lawrence Koo, specifically talking about this issue of surrender as a single or same-sex-attracted Christian, kind of like how we reconcile that. So there’s a lot more that we’re excited to share with our audience and community as we dive into this topic of surrendered sexuality.
Joe
So awesome. I love sharing life with people. so that’s, Juli, you’ve stumbled onto something here. God’s led you here. I can’t wait to see what he does.
Juli
Yeah, well me too. And let me thank you for joining us for this episode of Java with Juli and I hope you’ll be back next week as we continue to talk about surrender to sexuality.
