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The holidays should bring peace. Instead, they often bring tension, unresolved hurt, and that one person who knows how to get under your skin.
Today, Juli sits down with author and radio host Brant Hansen to talk about what it means to be “unoffendable”—especially when you’re passing the mashed potatoes to someone you struggle to forgive.
Juli (00:00.11)
Well, hey, friend, we are about a week away from Thanksgiving here in the United States. And let’s be honest, for many of us, this upcoming season of holidays of peace and joy and gratitude is also going to mean maybe some family drama, some unresolved tension in relationships, and probably at least one dinner conversation that we’re already kind of dreading.
So if that’s you, I can’t wait for you to hear today’s conversation on Java with Juli. I’m gonna be talking with author and radio host, Brant Hansen, about what it means to be unoffendable. Like how do you set down your relational baggage? How do you release the weight of resentment that you’re carrying? And actually show love to people that you disagree with. I know it sounds impossible, but that’s where we’re headed today.
And Brant is going to share some very practical things you can do to respond with grace to situations that would typically lead just to conflict and tension. So before you head into the holidays, I would encourage you just to take time to listen to this one. I think it’s going to change the way that you show up at your Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner table this year. And because I know that this week is going to be really busy for all of us, it’s going to fly by.
I want to take a second just to let you know about next week’s episode to make sure you don’t miss it. I’m talking to Christian sex therapist Dr. Deborah Taylor about why women struggle to experience sexual pleasure and what you can do about it. So make sure you sneak away for an hour or just pop in those earbuds while you’re stuffing the turkey because this is a conversation that you’re going to want to hear. All right, let’s head to the coffee shop for my conversation with Brant Hansen.
Juli (01:48.334)
Well, Brant, thanks for joining us on Java with Juli, and you are no stranger to radio, huh? This is like your normal thing.
Brant
Yeah, I like radio. I like doing stuff where I can’t be seen to be honest with you.
Juli
Why is that?
Brant
Well, a couple reasons. I have a neurological condition. So if I’m ever reading anything, my head moves back and forth because my eyes move and I’ve had it my whole life. And then the other thing is I was actually diagnosed on the spectrum years ago.
Brant (02:22.046)
So like normal human interactions with like body language and stuff. I’ve had to learn that. It’s nice on the radio. You just don’t have to think about it. I don’t have to think make eye contact here. Like, you know, look up stuff like, like all that stuff. Radio has been wonderful in that way.
Juli
Yeah, and I’m sure writing as well. Like you write in such a friendly way, I would never guess that.
Brant
Good, thank you.
Juli
Yeah, see, as a woman, I don’t like being on camera because I got to worry about hair and makeup, but you you guys don’t have to worry about that stuff.
Brant
Yeah, well, we do though. Like I try to practice hygiene or something. I know I’m gonna be on video, I should probably wash my face, brush my hair.
Juli
Yeah, that’s good. Well, most of the people are just going to be listening to us today if you might see us, but so you’re all good. Yeah. All right. right. So we’re going to dive into this idea. This is a book that you originally wrote in 2015 called Unoffendable. And I must have read this book like back when it first came out, because as I was reading this past week, I’m like, I’ve read this. I know I’ve read this. Like, I recognize these stories.
But it of came back up on my radar. I was hanging out with a friend of mine a few months ago, and this is a guy who would normally kind of engage in cultural conversations. And he makes this comment, and he’s like, I’m practicing being unoffendable. And I asked him about it, and he’s like, yeah, I’m listening to this book, and it’s really changing my perspective. And I had vaguely remembered this book before, and I’m like, man, I…
Juli (03:59.182)
I gotta talk to Brant about this and go back to that book because when you think about 2015, I feel like the culture was a lot less angry than we are today. So this message is more needed than when you first penned it.
Brant
Yeah, the funny thing is like when you write about a topic like this, it gets more and more relevant. And honestly, I think it’s always been a problem for the church and specifically for Christians because like Dallas Willard said, we’re not taught out of it. Like we think we’re supposed to be angry about things and then we wind up carrying that to the grave. Like we don’t know what we’re supposed to do about it. We know the rest of the culture is clueless about what to do about anger. Like it just gets worse and worse, but I feel like we should be the ones who actually know the solution for this.
Juli
Yeah. Okay, so if we got in a time machine and went back 20 years ago, would you have been a guy that was unoffendable or did you struggle with anger?
Brant
No, didn’t know what to do with anger. I was literally on the air doing the morning show in West Palm Beach and there was a crime that happened. It’s not a Christian radio station. And there was a crime that happened in Fort Lauderdale and I believe it was a group of guys were beating up homeless people or something. And I genuinely was, I was talking about it on the air. like, I’m really angry about this. And then other people were like, yeah, I’m angry too. We have this righteous anger. We should be righteously angry.
I earnestly asked the question. I wasn’t getting at anything. I was honestly asking and I said, how long should we be angry about this? Two weeks. I’m just curious as a believer, like a month, two years, maybe until these guys apologize or something. And no one could answer the question.
Juli
Yeah.
Brant (05:52.108)
And so I got started thinking like, if we have righteous anger, I know righteous anger is good, but how long are we supposed to hold on to it? Like literally until we die? And there’s a million reasons to be righteously angry. You just, can scroll and see it. And that’s just in this country. What about around the world? I travel a lot. Like there’s a list I can give you of other things to be angry about. Like, and so I actually looked in the Bible to find an answer to my question. Like, okay, I know we have righteous anger, but what, how long are we supposed to keep it? And what do we do with it?
And I found there is no righteous anger for humans in the Bible.
Juli
Wow. That’s quite a statement.
Brant (06:30.482)
It really is. None. And you would think if I was wrong about this, would have like some theologians would have crushed the argument by now, but they haven’t. There’s righteous anger for God without question. He’s entitled to it. He’s sinless. He’s entitled to vengeance. And we’re not. He’s sinless. But every time anger for humans is involved and it’s discussed, it’s for fools.
It resides in the lap of fools. It leads to destruction. We’re never told to hang on to anger. It’s the opposite in scripture. There’s not one mention, but we’ve all learned righteous and unrighteous anger. So whenever I talk about this, I have to tell people like, I know this is going to seem kind of counterintuitive, but please hold open the possibility that God can still show us something, even if we’re 70 years old and we’ve been in church all our life, but maybe there’s something new we could learn.
It’s actually a brilliant way to live and I do think it’s how we’re supposed to operate.
Juli
I want to get into like how we actually make the transition to being an affair before I got to ask all the questions that sort of push on this concept. Do it. So you said there’s nowhere in the Bible that we see this in humans where it’s good. I read a lot of the Psalms, including David’s Psalms, and there are places where he’s like, I hate sinners. I hate those who, you know, like are against God. I wish that you would smite…
Brant (08:09.774)
I want to break their teeth. I want their babies heads dashed on the rocks.
Juli
Yeah, he does. Which sounds like righteous anger. So tell me about that.
Brant
Well, we don’t know it’s righteous. We know he’s being honest. We know he’s writing honestly to God. But the idea that that’s prescriptive for us, well, we should also want people’s babies bashed, bashed on the rocks. That’s quite a leap, actually. And why, if that is righteous, why aren’t we told to want that? Why are we told every single time to get rid of anger? Like, why? And so the idea that it’s prescriptive, well, Moses got angry and killed the dude.
I guess we should kill people too. mean, he got angry, he’s Moses, right? Well, but it’s not prescriptive. That’s not the kind of literature it is. That’s not wisdom literature. It’s just David being honest and spilling his guts. He also says, like in Psalm 88, you’ve abandoned me, so I’m left with this darkness. End of chapter. And it’s not a prescription. Like, yeah, God left him in darkness. Like, no, that’s how he was feeling.
Brant
There’s so much more scripture that is constantly about getting rid of all anger and bitterness and we never talk about righteous bitterness. Yeah. You know, we only do this with anger to justify our anger. The scripture that people usually point out to defeat my argument is Ephesians 426 where it says, in your anger, do not sin. But that’s a comma at the end of the word sin. So people literally memorize half the sentence.
Brant (09:44.782)
Which is so interesting to me and I’ve had that I asked somebody yesterday like that’s cool I love that you brought that up because I don’t believe anger is sin per se it happens It’s like a warning light on a dashboard. It’s an emotion. That’s a response to perceive threat but Tell me what’s the rest of the sentence? And a ton of people have this memorized the half of the sentence, what’s the rest the rest of the sentence? I’ll tell you is: And be sure to get rid of your anger before the sun goes down.
Juli
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brant
That’s that half a verse that we’re hinging this whole theology of my anger is righteous. Like, no, you’re the unmerciful servant. If you don’t forgive other people, like, God’s been willing to forgive me, I have to let go of my right to anger because of what He’s done for me. That’s why I have to do this.
Juli
Yeah, yeah, one of the ways that I’ve thought about it over time is that righteous anger has a shelf life. Like there’s no way I can hold on to anger for very long before it turns into bitterness, rage, malice.
Brant (10:50.286)
That’s why you want it. That’s why you say get rid of it now. So I liken it to the ring from Lord of the Rings. Like Frodo didn’t ask for it. like I can go back to what my dad did to our family and it’s awful and horrific and I can be mad the rest of my life and you could, you’d go, well, that’s righteous anger. Well, I have to drop that ring in the cracks of doom or it’s going to kill my marriage. It’s going to kill me physiologically. Anger is incredibly deleterious for us physiologically. So
It is, I didn’t ask for the ring, I’m giving it, but I had to drop in the cracks of doom or it’s gonna destroy us.
Juli
Yeah, it’s too powerful. Is there anywhere in the Bible that actually uses the phrase righteous anger?
Brant
Yeah, about God.
Juli
That’s the only place we ever see it?
Brant
Yeah.
Juli
Okay. All right. So let me keep pushing on this concept.
Brant (11:43.214)
Do it, it, do it, I love it.
Juli
Some people will hear this and there’s a term that I think is kind of going around these days, spiritual bypass. I don’t know if you’ve heard that where it’s like we spiritualize things so that we don’t have to feel. There are people who will be detached and not engage because I don’t want to be angry. Like God doesn’t want me to be angry. So I’m not going to…
Brant
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Juli (12:13.216)
…explore my past, I’m not going to engage with culture. What’s the danger there?
Brant
Yeah, it’s like the toxic positivity thing, Where it’s like, can’t, well, that whole idea is hinged on not, or denying you feel something, or denying that something even happened, or being in denial. This is about identifying, yes, this is a real emotion. You really did that thing. But I’m gonna pick up the tab for it. I’m gonna actually forgive you because of what God’s done for me.
So what I’m not going to do is detach myself from what God has done for me. So I’m actually, I can enter into the grief of what you’ve done. It’s just the fact that what God has done for me, I’m guilty. I actually believe this as a Christian: I’m guilty for Calvary. I’m guilty for the death of an innocent man and I’ve been forgiven. And not only forgiven, I’ve been blessed with my wife, my children, this home, my dog, the sunshine outside. I’ve been given so much.
And Jesus is very clear, we forgive as we’ve been forgiven. So this is not ignoring reality, it’s actually paying attention to the whole of reality and understanding, yes, you have hurt me, but I can’t live with this and I’m gonna do it as an act of worship, I’m gonna forgive you as I’ve been forgiven. If that’s toxic, we got a problem because this is actually the way of Jesus.
Juli
Do you feel like in your study of this that there are seasons where we have to be angry for a while? When I asked that, like, let me give you an example. Let’s say you have a woman who is in a domestic violence situation. And what we know of any form of domestic abuse is most victims don’t even know that they’re being abused. It takes time for them to realize that.
Juli (14:05.504)
And there’s an element to which anger is the thing that wakes them up to say, you can’t do this to me. You can’t do this to our kids. And if we put that woman right in therapy and say, you need to forgive within a week, we’re doing a disservice. I would believe because we’re not letting her feel the brunt of what’s happened. So talk to me about that.
Sometimes can we rush people out of their anger and into forgiveness too quickly?
Brant
Well, anger is a response to fight or flight. And that’s a God given thing. So literally, as you know, physiological changes happen. Your cortisol spikes, your adrenaline spikes, your blood pressure changes, your body temperature, your metabolism, like all that stuff. If we don’t, let me say this, like I’ve been in this situation as a child, like where I felt all that fear. I’ve had knee knocking fear, literally teeth chattering fear, as we’re getting away from my dad. I’m thankful that we got away. I don’t want that the rest of my life. And so you probably would be in politic to bring it up when somebody’s right in the mess of getting away to say, you’re going to have to forgive. Like, that’s obviously ridiculous, but I don’t want to, think it’s profoundly unloving to not ultimately be building towards forgiveness. Forgiveness is freedom.
Because say, like if somebody’s like, well, you’re saying I have to stay in this abusive relationship, of course not. You still have boundaries, of course. However, if you don’t forgive, you are staying in relationship with that person for the rest of your life in your head. Like, I don’t want that. I would hate that on them. And the physiological effects of this, we know this. Our endocrinologist will tell us this. It kills us.
Brant (16:03.086)
If you keep this low-level anger in your system, keep that cortisol in your system, you will gain weight faster, your metabolism changes, your collagen breaks down, your skin will look older, you’ll die sooner, it causes heart problems. So to me, it’d be profoundly unloving to never suggest, I mean, to take it to that other extreme, like, wait a second, the goal here is ultimately for you not to have to live, be saddled with this anger. The goal is that.
And that’s why any AA program, any addiction, if you want to move forward in life, you have to forgive the people who have hurt you in the past. There’s no moving forward otherwise.
Juli
And I guess we’re agreeing that that’s the goal and that there’s a process. And that sometimes if we just try to grab on to forgiveness too quickly, we haven’t gone through the process of really recognizing what’s happened.
Brant
Completely agree with that. The problem is I see it as oftentimes we will come up with any, I’ve seen this happen, any justification for our own anger. And so people who are angry about politics, people are angry about their neighbors, people are angry about whatever, will then bring up a scenario where somebody’s being abused in order to justify the anger that they have in their non-abusive situation.
Juli
Yeah, yeah. How long did it take you to forgive your dad?
Brant (17:27.95)
I would say it was a process in my 20s. Because I realized implicitly even without being taught about anger and forgiveness, I realized I can’t live with this.
Juli
In your book, you mentioned that you’re a PK, a pastor’s kid. Is he a pastor?
Brant
Yes. And so we were terrified, my brother and I, that he would kill my mom. He tried to strangle her on one occasion. He had a knife to her throat on another in the parsonage. He drove the car in rage. He drove the car through the garage into the living room wall while my brother was on the other side of living room while watching TV. We thought we were going to get run over in the parsonage.
Juli
Hmm.
Brant
And then I would see him do his sermons three times a week. We were terrified to be home, but they got divorced and then my mom thought she could make it work. She just wanted it. She thought he was changed. They got remarried, got divorced again. And yeah, so it was terrifying. But I don’t want to be reliving in reaction to that for the rest of my life. can’t do that. know, torpedo my relationships I have as an adult.
Juli (18:45.102)
Well, and also your relationship with God.
Brant
Absolutely.
Juli
You know, there are a lot of people who have experienced abuse at the hands of a spiritual leader. And then it’s like, how can I even trust God or I want to be angry at every spiritual leader?
Brant
Totally understandable, totally. But I also realized too, I got real skeptical about life, as you might imagine, and I’m so skeptical as a matter of fact, it chased me back around to Jesus because I feel like he’s the only one that calls out hypocrisy and labels sin honestly and then does something about it. Like his idea that no one is righteous except God, I’m like, that makes sense to me.
Juli
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I’m sure that was a whole journey.
Brant
Yeah, right. But now it’s like, I tell people, I know there’s hypocrisy, believe me. I see it all over the place. However, I decided I’m not going to let hypocrites have the power to chase me away from the best relationship of my life. Like I get to talk to God, I get to partner with him in life and he’s been so good to me, I can see it.
And he’s brought me a sense of well-being regardless of circumstances. he’s like, I think his way of life is genius and it’s freeing. good grief, I already sacrificed my childhood to hypocrisy, not my adulthood. It ends now. Like you don’t get that power over me anymore to ruin my relationship with God just because you were in it for the women or you were in it for the money or whatever.
Juli (20:25.058)
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. That’s a powerful testimony. Brant, there are a lot of Christians who feel like in order to be faithful to God’s word, they need to be angry. They might not use those words, be angry, but I’ve heard things and I understand this. People say, I am so angry at the LGBT community because they’re destroying my kids or this next generation, where I’m so angry at this political party because they’re tearing down the fabric of our country. And they really believe that with that heart posture and the statement, they are holding up truth for Christ. Where are we getting it wrong when that’s our posture?
Brant
Well, I think that’s it. mean, Dallas Willard said anger is American Christians’ biggest problem because they’re not taught out of it. And I think he’s right. And I think what I’m saying about the righteous, unrighteous distinction that doesn’t exist for humans with anger. By the way, the reason I mentioned Martin Luther King Jr. in my book and I mentioned Dietrich Bonhoeffer is they also came from this idea that we don’t have righteous anger. I mean, Martin Luther King Jr.’s house is firebombed with his kids there. Like he’s like, I have to forgive these people. need to do it now. Wow. It does not mean that he wasn’t going to fight injustice. See, that’s the mistake that we make is we think, and the world thinks, we all think together that being angry is righteous. And so we’re in a competition to show how righteous we are by I’m more angry about this than you. You’re not angry about this. You should be. It makes me angry that you’re not angry about this. Like that’s the hyperloop of X and blue sky is like, who can be the angriest because we think it’s righteous. So it’s literally like a pharisaical righteousness race and we can pat ourselves on the back just for getting angry. But actually the blueprint for how we’re supposed to address injustice isn’t anger, it’s action.
Juli (22:33.652)
Okay. So tell me more about that.
Brant
So you can look at Martin Luther King or look at Bonhoeffer for examples, but in our own lives, we deal better with injustice not out of anger. If you’re angry, it actually inhibits your judgment. It makes your judgment unclear. It fogs it. So that’s why the people who are charged directly with dealing with injustice on a daily basis, like the police, they don’t do a better job if they’re angry.
They do a better job if they’re not. Same thing for judges or juries or the military. Like you do a better job. Whatever you do with anger, you can actually do better without it. But instead of patting ourselves on the back as a culture, look how angry I am. No, I actually should do something about it to protect the vulnerable. And I will. But it’s not gonna be out of anger. It’s gonna be out of actually a deep compassion and love, even for the perps.
Juli
Mm.
Brant
They may need to be punished, actually I’m still rooting for them at a soul level, a spiritual level, that someday they’re going to find peace with God. I’m rooting for everybody. that’s actually a more healthy way to live. And in James, it specifically says that human anger does not bring about the righteousness of God. That is a point blank quote.
Brant (23:58.646)
This is a better way to deal with injustice is by actually not being angry about it and then dealing with it.
Juli
You actually make the statement in your book that anger keeps us from being active. Like if I’m angry, I feel like I did my job and now I don’t have to get involved.
Brant
Yes, they’ve proven that. There’s been a couple different studies about that. It’s like if you post about something angrily, you’re actually less likely to do anything, like donate or something, because you feel like you’ve done your job by getting angry, because it’s righteous, right? The whole world thinks that their anger is righteous.
Juli
Mm-hmm.
Juli (24:34.166)
Right. Yeah, that’s true. It’s not just Christians. You’re right. It’s a competition of who can virtue signal through our anger the best.
Brant
Yeah.
Juli
Okay. So you tell a story in your book about a friend of yours named Michael. Can you share that story?
Brant
Yeah, this is going to sound a little bit dated because it’s been a while since this happened, but he was very evangelical, more so than me. And I mean that in a sense, like literally, like he just had a gift for telling people about Jesus. He was very open about it. And I’m more circumspect and quiet and introverted. He opened up a coffee shop in a university town in the downtown area, which is very hip and progressive and all that.
Juli
In San Francisco?
Brant
This was not San Francisco. This was in college. It was in Illinois. And he was going to use it to put on Christian concerts. And he did. They, you know, the word got out that a guy bought this building who’s a Christian. He’s going to make Christian stuff happen in it and Christian this. Well, they told him as a local charity for AIDS, told them they had their yearly art display and fundraiser in that building.
Brant (25:51.148)
And they said to him, Hey, we know you don’t want us there. So we’ll find another place. And he said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, want you here. And they’re like, well, some of the arts transgressive and like, wouldn’t be family friendly. He’s like, well, there’s it’s not for kids, but you’re welcome in my building. And they were shocked, but they had it in the building and he, he dressed that place up to the nines.
They had the best displays they ever had, the best, I mean, he dressed up in a tux and was at the front door with his wife who was dressed up in a dress and they had like chocolate dipped strawberries and champagne. And he made them the most welcome people, never sacrificing his belief in Jesus, but just like, I am for you. And the effect was these people did not know what to do with it, but they loved him.
And I even had one lady say, she is totally into pagan stuff openly. She’s like, I don’t like Christians, but there’s something about this guy. And he would talk to her about Jesus. But there’s something about this hospitality where you’re not fearful and you’re for people. People pick up on that instead of being like, I need to be scandalized by everybody all the time. Like, no, no, no, no. I know people are broken already. I’m not shocked.
And I learned a lot because I was not comfortable with that decision with him at first. I’m like, you’re what? Come on, man. Some of these paintings are going to be bad and stuff. But there’s something about not being scandalizable by not being offendable where you’re like, yeah, know humans are already broken. I’m going to love them anyway. That’s pretty powerful.
Juli
Yeah, I’d love to unpack that because while most of us aren’t going to buy a building and have that decision, all of us have those kinds of daily decisions of how we interact with the world. And the argument that you said at first you weren’t on board with his decision, the argument that some of us believe is if I show extravagant love like that, if I meet people where they are, they’ll think I agree with all the sinful things they’re doing. So I need to be offended like Jesus would be. Yeah. So go for it.
Brant
Yeah, think about Jesus’ reaction to things like that. Did he ever go, eww! That’s…okay, that’s disgusting. I’m out of here.
Juli
Just the Pharisees, basically.
Brant
Well, even then, I think he is rooting for those guys. Another story, and I can tell this on your program and some programs I couldn’t, but we moved to downtown, well, I won’t tell you where, it was in an industrial city and very on top of each other, old brownstone buildings, not a nice neighborhood necessarily, high crime, all that sort of stuff. Well, our next door neighbors on the other side of the wall were always smoking pot. It was a woman who was into Wicca and her boyfriend, who was just a big pot-smoking older guy. And we invited them out to dinner and they knew we were evangelical Christians or whatever. And they just were, not understand why we liked them. But we did. And we continued to get along. But the woman, I’ll call her Molly, continued to try to scandalize us. She’s like, check out my pentagram shirt I made. There was a child-likeness to her.
Brant (29:21.384)
And my wife knits and so she said, I want to learn to knit. So my wife said, come on over. So she would knit with her. And one time Molly made a pass at my wife. was just the two of them. And she’s like, Hey, do you like girls? And my wife’s response was, Molly, we’re not going to do that right now. Anyway, and she talked about something else and continued to knit with her.
And she was like, I don’t like Christians and I’m against this. And she continued to talk to us and she’s like, I believe in priests worship, priestesses, and nature. So we were leaving one day to go to Panera or something and our car is out in the front on the street. And we were getting in and my wife’s like, wait a second. She saw Molly standing out on the sidewalk in the cold. And she said she’s crying.
And so I got in the car and she said, hang on. And she went to talk to her and I watched them talk on the sidewalk. I was looking through the rear view mirror and eventually they just held onto each other.
Juli
Mm-hmm.
Brant
And Carolyn came back, my wife, got in the car. She was crying. I said, what happened? Molly said that her boyfriend had just had a heart attack and he may not make it. He’s in the hospital.
Juli (30:31.906)
Wow.
Brant
And she said to Molly, Molly.
Brant (30:37.838)
Can I pray for you right now? And Molly’s response was, yes. And so they hugged each other and my wife prayed over her and prayed for her. And I’m like, you don’t get to that if you’re scandalized by all the other stuff.
Juli
Yeah.
Brant
Now we’re empty nesters. I would treat it like a different thing if I had little kids in the house. But I’m not afraid of anything. And I feel like the gates of hell won’t stand against us. We have nothing to be afraid of. And we can be pretty bold about this. Now, if they get offended, and this has happened before too, people are like, you’re Christians. I hate your guts. I’m out of here. I can’t control that.
Juli
Mm-hmm.
Brant (31:21.198)
But it’s not going to be for lack of me loving them or lack of me being for them and nine times out of ten people are very Shocked in a very good way that you’re actually for them
Juli
Mm-hmm. These are beautiful stories. Yeah, and it’s convicting. Brant, how do we start making the switch from being people who go through a day and constantly think, I’m not going near that person, or even traffic, we get mad at people who cut us off or coworkers who say mean things.
Brant
Yeah, okay, so the traffic thing, literally regard traffic as forgiveness practice. That’s what I call it. It’s literally a chance to practice it, because you have to practice stuff and then it becomes second nature. That’s the good news about this, like it does get easier, I’m not kidding. And the other thing is, I wanna make sure I make this point, decide you’re not gonna be shocked by the same stuff over and over and over through your life.
Brant (32:28.494)
There are people who are like, I cannot believe somebody just cut me off on 95. have you ever driven before? Yeah. Why do we? I can’t, but you can’t believe it. Like, I can’t believe my boss would say that. How long has your boss been saying stuff like that? I can’t believe my sister would like, what, that’s what she does. If you are someone who is so thankful for your own forgiveness from Jesus, and you actually believe you’re supposed to forgive as you’ve been forgiven, start at the beginning of the day and decide you’re gonna forgive people in advance today because of God’s done as an act of worship, not because they deserve it, but because you didn’t deserve it, and that’s why you’re so thankful. That puts you in a heart of gratitude, and you extend forgiveness. It becomes a posture. It becomes part of who you are. And I’m telling you, as you practice it, like releasing your right to anger against people.
It gets easier. Just like practicing free throws or practicing a piano, there are things you have to think about when you’re first shooting a free throw. But after a while you do it over and over and over. So you don’t have to think, where does my elbow go? Where do I, my feet go? Like it becomes second nature. And that’s becoming more Christ-like. You start to respond in real time. You don’t have to think about it.
Juli
Yeah.
Brant (33:53.098)
After a while, if you pray for blessings over people who cut you off or annoy you or whatever, you actually pray for them. Peace for their homes, like in their hearts. God bless them. Pretty soon, you won’t even get mad when people cut you off. I’m not kidding.
Juli
Yeah. Well, you live in South Florida and if you can say that.
Brant
Yeah, because it’s like I’ve been here before, it’s traffic, right? So it’s like the Holy Spirit is working through your obedience, because you’re doing what Jesus told us to do, just praying for our enemies thing, loving our enemies. You do that, the Holy Spirit changes you, and you become a different sort of person who becomes more Christ-like.
Juli
Yeah.
Brant (34:38.412)
Why we ignore this stuff as the church, like why we’re not talking about this stuff. This is actually disciple shit. This is why we’re supposed to do this. So I love talking about this because it helps us become different sorts of people that we’re supposed to be.
Juli
Yeah. And practically, how would you say that we are to stand for truth without being angry? Like, what does that look like?
Brant
You operate with this, again, this heart of forgiveness. Jesus is on the cross, right? And he’s saying, forgive them, they don’t know what they’re doing. Remind yourself that that is true. Our actual fight is not against flesh and blood. We see these people on the news who can drive us crazy. We know they’re up to evil. They’re even doing evil to children. I don’t like their agendas, but I can still root for that person. So if you want to know how to do it,
You still say the things that are true, but you have to have prayed for these people first so that as you’re talking, it’s not marred by actual anger. And when you do that, by the way, it’s actually more effective. Even with your own children or say you’re a teacher, if you’re not actually angry with the students, but you still stand up for the rules, because this is the way it’s going to be.
Brant (36:00.994)
When you’re actually explaining what’s gonna happen, what the punishment’s gonna be, and you’re not angry, it’s actually intimidating. It’s actually like, why is she so calm about this? Like, hey, this is gonna happen now because you did that.
Juli
And I think a big part of this is also learning to trust God.
Brant
Totally.
Juli
He’s going to make it right. I think when I get angry, I take on agendas that were never meant for me to carry.
Brant (36:28.738)
We don’t control outcomes. All you can do is be faithful and trust God. The trusting of God is so big too, just with justice in general. Like this is his thing. Right? So all I can do is be faithful with doing what he told me to do. I am not God in the end. I am not charged with final judgment. And that’s a wonderful thing. I am a sinner saved by his goodness and his grace to me.
I am charged with loving people anyway, understanding that I’m in a spiritual battle and being ultimately for people, even if I’m against their agenda, even if I think it’s evil, I’m still rooting for them. They’re stamped with the image of God, man. I’m rooting for that in them.
Juli
Yeah. How has this change over time impacted your life and your relationships?
Brant
Well, I am able to laugh more. I’m more lighthearted. I can handle the news without being consumed by it. I can sleep better because I’ve learned too, here’s another practical tip, a gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. The wild thing about that proverb is it’s reflexive, I think. When I hear myself give a gentle word instead of an argument where I win the argument, I’m doing it out of anger.
Brant (38:00.142)
When I hear myself be gentle with people, it turns away my own wrath.
Juli
Mhmm.
Brant
And so I can have dinner with my family and I’m not thinking about this ongoing argument. I can let go of that. Everything Jesus tells us is a genius way to live. So when he’s telling us to forgive, it’s actually easier than living a life of unforgiveness. This is a better way to live. Everything he tells us. So when he’s about anxiety, for instance, or he’s telling us to pray for our enemies, like, he said, if you tether yourself to me instead of other stuff, my load is easier and lighter, and you’ll find rest. And I have found that to be true. It’s a more childlike way to live. It’s a more trusting thing. It’s a more day-to-day thing, where you’re just like, Lord, I’m just gonna forgive people no matter what.
I’m going to let go of my anger. know that because of what you’ve done for me. this practicing this actually forces you into a place of gratitude, which is not only the antidote to anger, but gratitude and anxiety don’t coexist.
Juli
Mm.
Brant
This, this gratitude thing being filled with the gratitude. You’re living a less anxious and angry life. I think I’m healthier as a result. I can be a blessing for people because I’m not caught up with my own stuff. And we need this because a lot of older people, older than you and me, are the demo for Fox and MSNBC and CNN and all the networks. Like, they sit there and whip you up into anger. So these older people who could be founts of wisdom and patience and perspectives are themselves whipped into anger all the time. We’re missing out.
Juli (39:55.982)
Well as you head into the holidays, I pray that the echoes of this conversation will be with you and will help bring peace to your table and give you some strategies and the heart attitude to leave offenses behind. Remember that you’re not going to be able to control what everybody else does and says, but you can choose to stay unoffendable. Boy, what a great testimony that would be to come through the holidays and say, hey, I was actually able to do that by God’s grace.
We’re going to link to Brant’s book by the same name, Unoffendable. It’s a great read. That will be in our show notes as well as a few blogs. One that I wrote called How to Have Tough Conversations and another one called When Your Adult Child Makes Choices You Disagree With. And if you’re looking for more resources to help you have hard conversations on divisive topics, you’re going to find books, blogs, and more podcast episodes like this one at our website, authenticintimacy.com.
And if you are celebrating Thanksgiving next week, I hope you have a wonderful holiday and don’t forget to carve out some time for next week’s episode. Again, it’s one you’re not gonna wanna miss. I’m talking to Christian sex therapist, Dr. Deborah Taylor about why women struggle to experience sexual pleasure and what you can do about it. Thanks for listening and I look forward to having coffee with you next time for more Java with Juli.