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What if sexual intimacy became something you look forward to, instead of something you brace yourself for?
Juli sits down with sex therapist Debra Taylor to talk about what we’ve learned about women’s sexuality over the last 30 years. They dive into the myths that still plague marriages, the real factors shaping women’s sexual desire, why exhaustion is often the #1 barrier to intimacy, and how couples can pursue healing, connection, and a more meaningful sex life—especially when trauma or mismatched desire is part of the story.
Juli (00:00.13)
Well, hey, friend, it’s Juli. And before we get into today’s conversation, which is going to be a great one, I want to jump in for a quick minute and let you know that we are now kicking off our year-end giving campaign. You know, we are in the middle of the holiday season now, and that means that we are also in the season of giving. Now, if Java with Juli has encouraged you, this is the perfect moment to give back and help us reach even more people with God’s truth and love about sexuality.
Every week over 10,000 men and women find hope, healing, and answers through this podcast, and your gift makes that possible. You might have noticed that we don’t sell ads on this podcast. It is paid 100 % for by people like you who generously give back to keep this ministry going and growing. You can make a donation at Authenticintimacy.com/give. And between now and the end of the year, your gift to Authentic Intimacy will go twice as far.
We have a few generous donors who have offered to double your gift. So take advantage of that. Your gift really does help us plan for next year and continue to grow in the ministry. So if it’s been helpful for you, please do give back. All right, now we’re gonna jump to my conversation with Dr. Debra Taylor.
Juli
Hey friend, welcome to another episode of Java with Juli. I am Juli Slattery and this podcast is a production of Authentic Intimacy which is a ministry that’s dedicated to helping you make sense of God and sexuality. And we have a fun show for you today. We’re going to be talking about the mystery of female sexuality. So grab your Java and get ready to dive in. Now, I think we all know that female sexuality is complicated and we’re going to be talking about why it’s so complicated. We’ll look at why some women believe that sexual pleasure was just created for men and not for them.
And we’re also gonna be talking to women who are struggling with sexual pleasure. And we’ll mention a few ways that you can begin to think more positively about sexuality. And if you are a guy listening, I’m so glad you’re here. We’re gonna give you some advice on how you can gently and genuinely prompt your wife to be more sexually involved with you. Now, these are not easy conversations and you’re gonna hear Dr. Debra Taylor and I go back and forth on why this might or might not work and that’s okay.
Juli (02:21.848)
We’re not here to actually solve the mystery of female sexuality, as if that’s even possible. But we do want to remind you that a great sex life is about loving each other well through the journey and communicating your needs to one another. And if you’re looking for some follow up resources, we’re going to link to a few blogs. One is called, “Five Things You Need to Know About Women, Orgasm, and Intimacy”. Another is called, “How Sexual Differences Can Make You Better Lovers”.
And finally, we’ll link to a blog called, “A Secret for the Guys”. Yeah, that sounds intriguing, so check that out. You can look for those blogs in our show notes as well as a link to a few of our books that are applicable. So right now, let’s dive into my conversation with Dr. Debra Taylor.
Juli (03:10.616)
Debra, thanks so much for joining me. We are in a hotel lobby at a very big convention. Yes. And it was hard to find anywhere that’s quiet. Yes. Yes. And any source of coffee that you don’t have to wait an hour to get. That’s right.
Debra
Which is very sad, you owe me a coffee Juli.
Juli
I know I do. owe myself a coffee. I haven’t had one yet today, which is really not good.
Debra
No, that’s not good.
Juli
No. We’ll hope that this goes okay.
Debra
Let’s see if we can both be coherent.
Juli (03:38.15)
There you go. So Debra, I was first introduced to you many years ago without realizing it when I read a book that you were one of the authors of called The Secrets of Eve.
Debra
Yeah
Juli
That was probably the first book that I had ever read that just described female sexuality and in an intense kind of research look at why we’re so complicated.
Debra (04:05.14)
Yes. That was a wonderful study. It was a dream to be able to do that. I felt very privileged. And there was so little data out there at the time, particularly on Christian women. What was available was very not good. Not good research and made Christians out to be Christian women, but Christians out to be sexless and all sorts of things that proved not to be true.
Juli
You kind of like the narrative that good Christian women just have sex to please their husbands. We don’t have our own desire. That sort of the…
Debra
No, I don’t even think that was out there at the time. I mean, I think it was more like, know, Christians have more affairs than anybody else and they’re, you know, uptight and don’t know much about sex and aren’t having much sex and really it was pretty ignorant. The Sex in America study had not come out at that time. We kind of launched our study the same time they were working on their very scientific University of Chicago study.
What was really fun is some of our data, even though their study obviously had a lot more funding and social scientists out the wazoo working on it, some of our data came out almost exactly like theirs, which was so confirming that even with a sample that were volunteers and all that kind of stuff, that we still got good data.
Juli
Wow. Yeah, I remember reading the results of the Sex in America study. Correct me if I’m wrong, but this is a study that concluded that the most sexually satisfied people in America were middle-aged married women of faith. There was a Chicago study that concluded that.
Debra (05:42.134)
Yes. Yeah. They didn’t exactly conclude it that way, but yeah, can read it. Certainly that Protestant Christians were having more sex than, you know, and married. Were having like the most sex, which was not the narrative at the time. The narrative was that young, hip, single, you know, they’d be having the most sex and it turned out that wasn’t true.
Juli
Okay, so and that’s consistent with what you found. But yes, you were looking specifically at women and was it Christian women or was it?
Debra
Christian women. Yeah.
Juli
And what did you find?
Debra
Oh, we found so much. It was 2,000 Christian women, varied in age. I believe the lowest age was 17, don’t quote me. It’s been a long, long time since this study, but 17 up to around 80. Which you gotta remember this was years ago and so it was paper and pencil. Like no internet back then surveys and stuff. And it had 100 questions on it.
And my husband, who’s a scientist and our chart, who was the lead author of Secrets of Eve, said, you can’t do that. You can’t make a study that long. No one will fill it out. And it’s like we had women attaching their sexual histories, writing up the sides, because they didn’t like, my husband always says, if they didn’t like the question you wrote, they just wrote you the question they wanted you to ask. He was stunned at how forthcoming women would be given the opportunity. But we came to, conferences like this and begged people, please fill out our survey because we don’t know what the sexuality of Christian women is like. And we know far more now than we did back then. Catherine Hart Weber and I were asked to do a women’s conference and that’s we went hunting for data and it was you know the Janice study and a couple other studies that were pretty negative about Christians.
Debra (07:32.782)
There just really wasn’t data on the sexuality of women, let alone the sexuality of Christian women. So that’s kind of how we ended up getting to do this study. I mean getting to do this study… it was the most, I mentioned to you last night when we were talking that it was like my life’s work, but I got to do it in my late 30s, early 40s. when I was done, I wasn’t sure what I was going to do with my life because it was like, this is what I always wanted to do. I got to do it. I don’t know what to do now.
Juli
You use all that research as you help people.
Debra
Yeah. And we ended up doing sexual wholeness and starting to teach other therapists how to be Christian sex therapists. And so it launched us in a good direction. at the time I was a little like, OK, Lord, now what? It was great. I think, you know, there’s some things that people say, yeah, duh, know, intuitive things, you know, like one of the really strong findings in Secrets of Eve and actually in the recent work I did in my doctoral work, is that marital happiness is highly, highly linked to sexual satisfaction. People go, well, of course. Well, no, it’s not, of course. You there’s lots of things that we think would be true that aren’t true, and there’s lots of things we think aren’t true that are. But that’s a really strong finding. And to find it again in another survey of Christian women 30 years later and then in a lot of secular research since then, that marital happiness really predicts sexual satisfaction and sexual satisfaction predicts marital happiness.
Juli
So all we can say is that they’re correlated. We can’t necessarily say which is causing which?
Debra
Yes, and there’s been studies trying to figure that out. mean, good research. And longitudinal studies, which you can afford to do a longitudinal study, which, you know, takes people’s measurements over time. And they come, you know, it always sort of comes with different conclusions. Marital happiness leads to sexual satisfaction. No, no, no, it’s sexual satisfaction that predicts at a later point, there’ll be increased marital happiness. What we do know is people who are working with couples, maritally, should address their sex lives. And people who are working with couples to improve their sex lives should address their marital happiness because they’re linked and you can…
Juli
It probably depends on whether men or women are doing the research what they come out with right? There is a different bend and you just it makes you wonder if God created us that way so we’d have a drive to work on both. Where in general the husband is saying hey this is gonna help our marriage right to have more sex right and in general the wife is saying well if we work on connection and emotional intimacy that will help us have better sex right yeah right and you really need both of those things being addressed.
Debra
You do need both of those things being addressed. And some people want to say, well, if you improve the marital happiness, that alone will improve the sex life. And that is not true. Most sex therapists, well, in many cases, that is not true. Most sex therapists will tell you, I have some pretty happily married couples who are really confused about what to do with their sex life. I’m sure. Yeah.
Juli
Yeah, got you, yeah. One of the things I remember learning from your book, and I think that this is still true today, is that the number one barrier to women enjoying sex is just exhaustion and fatigue.
Debra
I, yes, I still believe that. We had one of the lovely things in our, the original survey, which was, you know, like legal size, four pages long, crazy, you know. We gave them a thing at the end where we could say, describe your ideal sexual experience, and we could say any other questions or comments. And we got the wildest, most wonderful comments, and that actually formed, you might remember. There were quotes all throughout the book and those came from the respondents. And some of them were, and of course I was in my 30s and I was a little bit late to become a mom, not maybe by today’s standards but by my generation’s standards. I remember just reading some of these things and thinking, yes, yes, I mean, you know, cause I was so tired. you know.
Debra (11:54.134)
We wait to have sex until it’s late at night and I’m so tired I could die. That was a very common quote. I have three kids under the age of five and they’re always slobbering on me and patting me and kissing me and climbing on me and all those things. And when he comes home, the last thing I want is to be slobbered on, touched, pawed, climbed on.
Juli
I’ve been giving my body all day long. I don’t want to give it to another person. Some of this, and I don’t mean to be graphic when I say this, but some of that is counterintuitive, because it seems that for a lot of couples, the man is actually doing more physical work during intercourse than the woman is. It doesn’t require much physical effort for her necessarily.
Debra
I’m looking at you looking at my face going, what is that face? My face is saying, what? It depends on what position you’re in.
Juli
It does depend, but just to say it’s possible for a man to say, I’m the one who’s going to do the more physical work. Why is it a big deal if you’re tired? We can do this without you exerting a lot of energy.
Debra
Most men actually probably wouldn’t say that because they want somebody that’s involved, not somebody who’s just going to lay there.
Juli (13:08.77)
Well, and the other thing is that it requires more than just physical energy for women. It requires the emotional energy, the concentration. so fatigue is not just my physical body is tired, but I have nothing left. can’t focus. Do you understand like the difference, like why a man can be exhausted and still desire and enjoy sex, but for a woman, it’s like that’s such a game changer.
Debra
My husband is in his late 60s and we used to joke when we spoke together, but we were serious, that he used to work 14 hour days and then commute. We’re in California, so commute at least an hour, sometimes two each way. And we used to joke that if he was headed for bed and he was like literally falling into bed, you know, like good night and he’s going and I were to walk to the furthest reaches of the house, maybe in the garage throwing in laundry and I said, oh, that’s too bad. Cause I maybe would have liked to made love tonight; he would magically hear that come running down the hall and grab me and say, that’s fine. I have just enough energy to make love with you before I die. I mean that, that would be his reaction. You know, I think in his sixties, he’s still kind of there, you know.
And I had an autoimmune disorder that I didn’t know I had. I had kids, I had research and then sexual wholeness. I had a private practice. had life. And I was just, I felt for a long time I was dragging a dead body. It changed me, like that old Greek thing. And I could be in a good place and not feel great, but feel good for me. And it’d be like, how much energy do I have? Do I have enough for this? And it would be like, you can sleep or you can make love with me before you die. And I say, I’d like to sleep, thank you very much.
Juli (15:07.05)
And I think that’s a common experience for men and women. It’s not for every couple, but the vast majority, men are like, yeah, I could muster up the energy for this. And women are like, no, that’s not going to happen.
Debra
With Mike Sytsma early research and his dissertation, he’s part of sexual wholeness and his ongoing research, we know, and other now secular research, we know that at least 20 % of women are the high drive partner. I always get, I’m sure you get when you speak, like, what’s wrong with me, I’m the one begging him for sex, blah, blah, blah. And I always make a point, there is nothing wrong with you. A fifth of women is a large number of women…
Juli
That is a large…and you said at least. So that is a large population?
Debra
Yeah, and so, know, when we speak, when we talk about this, we need to acknowledge the roles are often reversed. And also age has some amount of shift in that because we know that as men age, many men start to report more of a receptive desire, less of the initiating desire, or more of a like, I’m tired, I wasn’t really thinking about it versus thinking about it every five minutes, you know. But now that you bring it up, that’s a good idea, you know, that kind of thing.
Debra (16:21.46)
So it shifts over the life cycle. shifts according to stress. It shifts for lots and lots of reasons. But, you know, basically most sociological and psychological and medical research shows that in many cases the man is the higher drive.
Juli
Yeah. Yeah. I remember reading somewhere recently that testosterone has a big part of this to play that when a woman’s tired her testosterone levels are very low and that is partly to blame for why she has no desire and yeah I just saw that recently.
Debra
As a piece of it, I might agree with that. The problem is the research on giving women testosterone is equivocal. You know, I’m a big believer in actually little bits of testosterone for women, you know, if you’re willing to evaluate it and take the risks and all that kind of stuff. So, I mean, I do believe testosterone plays a role, but women are so dang complex. It’s far beyond.
Juli
Oh and I, yeah, for sure. And I’m not suggesting that women take testosterone, but that, wow, like even biologically, when we walk around dog-tired, our bodies are not ready to perform certain tasks.
Debra
Yes, yes. Versus, you know, even testosterone in men. There are men that are clinically low testosterone and still very high interest in sex. And there are men who are high testosterone who don’t appear to be, you know, so it’s like testosterone is a piece of the puzzle and it can be a huge piece for some people. It’s just fascinating. Hormones are a piece of the puzzle. There’s so much more. We are so complex. You know, it’s not.
Debra (18:10.67)
I mean, maybe this is too graphic and you’ll have to cut it out, but Mike once had a man at a seminar or a friend or whatever say, isn’t there something you can give me that we can just slap between her legs and I’ll make her want me?
Juli
Oh yeah, oh wow.
Debra
And Mike’s like, I know one of the problems.
Juli
Yes. That attitude right there. Let’s talk about that. I think one of the narratives that we’re working really hard to change is this idea that sex is really important for men and that good women take care of their husbands’ sexual needs. And that if a woman happens to enjoy sex, if she happens to have a high desire, that’s a great thing, but it’s not a necessary thing that you can have a good marriage and the woman can just kind of say, well, sex has never been great for me, but it’s about my husband. What’s wrong with that kind of thinking?
Debra
I’ve heard you say that now a couple times, like when we did the, whatever it was, the webinar and stuff. you must see it on my face. I’m sitting here watching you and I’m getting more, I’m like a cock or spaniel with my head cocking further and further aside, like, no? You know, like I’ve been a sex therapist for almost as long as I’ve been married, which is 43 years now. And can you see the smoke coming out of my ear?
Juli
But you have to have heard this like you look at me like you’ve never heard this, but I know you practice in California. So life is different in California…
Debra (19:41.39)
Life is really different where you live, Juli.
Juli
I hear this all the time.
Debra
Well, it’s wrong.
Juli
Well, tell us why. Tell us why because I think it has never been said that bluntly, but I think that’s what a lot of women pick up, particularly in Christian circles.
Debra (20:01.486)
I think it has been said that bluntly. was so shocked. was listening to one of your podcasts with the young millennial couple that and in the advice they were given was she was supposed to like basically have sex until he fell over. You yes, that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.
Juli
And harmful.
Debra
And oh, I mean, beyond yes, Beyond harmful, like abusive, actually. Right. And well-meaning, which I thought they were very gracious to say, that that advice was well-meant. And I know that, I encounter people that have been given horrible input and advice. But it’s like, I’m just always stunned. It’s like, cause some of this comes from pastors, well-meaning pastors, I love my pastor. But for one, when we, in our first 10 years of marriage, thank God, literally, he led us to the Church on The Way and Jack Hayford was my pastor. And Doug would be talking about once we got associated, Doug Rosenau, and we were doing sexual wholeness and doing education and stuff, Doug would be talking about, you know, the church and how it’s given these negative messages about sex and I’d be looking at him the same way I’m looking at you because my pastor, we had a family conference every year and some of the most lovely hysterical laughter came from some of his teachings on sex and I got a very, even though it was conservative, I got a very positive view about sex from him. I had a mother who had a scientific training and so she was very biological and so I got a very just sort of neutral or semi-positive view from her. And I my own issues, I mean I have trauma in my background and stuff but, I, you know I had to, to learn and we had to learn and all that. But overall, I don’t know how you read Genesis and come away with the woman’s just supposed to lie there and take it because it’s leaving cleaving in one flesh and it’s to both of them. That’s marriage. You leave all of your formerly intimate relationships, you cleave to each other and then you become one. And that oneness includes sex, but it’s way more than sex. But the directive is to both of them.
Debra
I mean, God said, therefore a man should leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. And the two should become one.
Juli (22:27.886)
I’m gonna push here.
Debra
Please do.
Juli
I grew up in this kind of environment. Yeah. First of all, that’s just a verse. And so we don’t study what does cleave mean and what does that look like sexually to cleave other than becoming physically one flesh, which you can do with no passion. If you take out the book of Song of Solomon, which most people don’t read or talk about, the passages on sex and the passages on marriage, don’t flesh this out for us. And then they can be misconstrued, like we’ve talked about on Java with Juli before, 1 Corinthians chapter seven being used to say, is your marital duty to meet your spouse’s sexual needs, and you should not abstain from sex for any reason other than you both agree for a time to pray, and then come back together so that you’re not tempted.
Juli
Now, when a pastor teaches that passage, he’s usually gonna say what this means, usually it’s the guy that has a higher drive, he’s gonna be tempted to look at pornography or cheat on you if you don’t meet his needs. That is how that has been taught. And so women here, well, that’s an important part of being a wife. If I don’t do this, I’m leaving my husband vulnerable, so I gotta check that box. And you’re looking at me like you’ve never heard this before.
Debra
Oh, I’ve heard this before. fact, we as sex therapists that work predominantly with Christians, oftentimes there’s that client that comes in carrying their Bible and it’s like, you know, we’re going to have that session today. Like, it’s the first Corinthians seven passage.
Juli
Is it the man or the woman carrying their bible?
Debra
Oh always the man. Always.
Juli
Okay, so he’s getting ready to say..
Debra
You need to come fix her.
Juli
And part of what I want to say is that in 1 Corinthians 7, it’s not just talking about the higher desire person. The lower desire person also has sexual needs that you are to minister to, not you know, just meet, but minister to. And that doesn’t happen in marriage. In most marriages, it’s all about the person with the high desires, the only one with needs.
Debra
I laugh because the way Doug tends to address that is to say, her body belongs to you and your body belongs to her. So if your body belongs to her and she doesn’t want to use it tonight. Yeah. You know, like, and, you know, her rights, her marital rights are to sometimes not want to have sex with you, especially with this attitude.
You know, the bottom line is, isn’t everything we do supposed to be done in love?
Debra
Yes. And yet, I also have to say, I do feel compassion for men who don’t get it because it’s so far out of their experience.
Juli
Yeah.
Debra
I mean, my husband has been very gracious. Like I said, you know, I was tired most of my married life until partly we figured out kind of what was going on with me health-wise. But he was gracious and he taught with me and gave sort of taught seriously that, you know, you belong to each other and you’re to harmonize and love each other and take each other into account, all that kind of stuff. He was the one who did the data handling in Secrets of Eve. And even though he didn’t say a huge thing, I saw a real shift. Because when he saw 1800 or you know however many married women there were in that 16-1800 because not all the women who answered the question are married he saw them saying in big numbers lots of the things he’d heard me say over the years
Juli (26:15.477)
So it’s sort of validating.
Debra
Oh completely, it’s like, oh, it’s not just Deb, it’s not just me understanding that this is Debra, but it’s like these 800 other women are saying the exact same thing she’s saying to me. I just saw sort of this even more of a shift of, oh, it’s not just her. This is not just my cross to bear, you know, this is a lot of men and a lot of women and we need to help them understand each other and love each other and lay down their lives for each other.
Juli
So what do you think are the main things that the average husband does not understand about his wife that he needs to understand to really nurture her sexually?
Debra
Oh, nurture her sexually. Well, you know again, when you generalize, you generally lie, you know, but it’s like, like, okay, so in general, most men have higher, I prefer to say desire, but, most women are less interested in a broad range of sexual things, okay? So that’s just one, you know, thing that men don’t get.
Debra (27:29.254)
I mean, men think about sex. multiple times a day. A woman can go through an entire day and never think about sex. And at least in Secrets of Eve, one of the most startling findings all the way back then that I have seen in multiple ways since then, including people going, I just can’t figure this out in secular studies. And Mike and I, we get this. But when a woman thinks about sex, how often she thinks about sex and how often she reports feeling sexual desire, it’s like a one-to-one correlation. So we give assignments to women, think about sex more positively. You have to think positive.
Juli
How? Like one of the ways that I think about sex is I write books about it. So that helps. Yes. Yes. But if this isn’t your day job, what are some positive ways that a woman can start thinking about sex?
Debra
We’ve all had clients who literally put it on their calendar, like three, four, five, or every day. you know, back when we used to have what I called it my brain, but you know, we all carried those. Yes, planners. Now it’s on our phone. So set an alarm on your phone. Once a day, 10 minutes. The assignment I usually give women is sit in a chair or lay down on your bed, set an alarm so you don’t fall asleep, and then literally take 10 minutes.
Debra (28:45.848)
Just breathe, relax, and think of a positive sexual experience you’ve had with your spouse. Or think the most positive things you can think about sex. Or read a passage in the Song of Solomon that’s positive, and then just lay on your bed and chew on it. Like visualize it, or think about God saying to you, drink, oh lovers. Eat your fill, bless you, because that’s what He says.
Find your happy place sexually, whatever that is, and spend some time marinating in that. Then get up and go back to work, or get up and… But if women don’t think about sex, they don’t have sexual desire. Well, men, spontaneously, seemingly, but they get triggered by things being far more visual, or, you know, they handle their genitals multiple times a day. It’s hard not to think about sex, you know.
There are just a variety of that men, know, hire testosterone, being one of them. So they’re thinking about sex disorder all the time, and that makes sense.
Juli
Is it helpful for a man to be the one prompting his wife to think about sex more often?
Debra
No.
Juli
Tell me why.
Debra
Because no one likes to be told what to do. And when something is difficult or when I’m trying to learn to do it for me and for us. Everybody around me, especially in your kind of Christian, you know, we all have our own Christian bubble, but in your Christian bubble, you know, it’s all about think about it for him or do it for him. And it’s like, I don’t want to tell women to do it for him. I want to tell women to begin to discover the sexual person within. Even if she’s like, well, I don’t care and I don’t want to do it for them, but don’t just do it for him. You know?
I mean, if that’s your only motivation at first, okay, we’ll go with that, you know, because I’m pretty pragmatic. But in that bubble where you’re constantly told your feelings don’t matter, only his feelings matter. And somebody would say, well, that’s not what I’m saying. And it’s like, well, that’s how it’s coming across. You know, you don’t matter. Your feelings don’t matter. And it’s like our feelings matter. You know, you’re not going to get to easily to a positive place of thinking about sex if you’re constantly being told, well, that’s okay, do it for him. Like, no, this is not how you were created.
Juli
It’s a gift.
Debra
And it’s a gift. You know, I’m a marital therapist. That’s what God called me to be. I see individuals, and I’m a sex therapist because I’m a marriage therapist, but I don’t look at an individual when they’re in my office, even if I’m doing individual therapy.
Debra (31:41.174)
I am constantly conscious about the relationships around them. and how what we’re doing and what we’re saying to each other and my focus with them, how that’s going to impact their marriage, their parenting, because those relationships are going to be impacted by any changes that that person makes, you know. And you can’t impact one person without having a ripple effect in the family.
Juli
Right. So when the wife gets healthy, it has a positive impact on everyone. And right now we’re keeping wives from being healthy in this area. So let me ask you, what are some constructive ways that a husband can genuinely be part of helping his wife heal, helping his wife just mature sexually instead of staying stuck in that kind of thinking?
Debra
The biggest thing, which in some circles it’s like, I’m dead serious. I don’t believe much happens in this world without prayer. So before he says a word, I would really exhort him to be praying for her. That God would awaken a desire in her to find that part of herself and to grow that part of herself and to be open to being who she was created to be because every single human being has sexuality in their core, every single one. Now how that gets expressed and how God wants that directed and all those things, those are things we develop and we learn. Developmentally, we are sexual, emotional, physical, spiritual beings and some of that’s really undeveloped in lots of people.
Juli
So he can pray that is an important…
Debra (33:27.032)
Super important, foundational, I would say. And then he can gently and lovingly ask..
Juli
Ask what?
Debra
You know, this is really important to me. Will you consider, will you get curious?
Juli (33:46.798)
See now, I would hear that and I’d say that’s falling back into the old narrative. This is really important to me. Like, I would rather have a husband ask, what does sex mean to you? I mean, how do you see it in our relationship? How can I be a better lover for you? Because now the focus isn’t just this is very important for me, so I want you to get on the same page. It’s, want to pursue who you are as a sexual person. What do you think of that?
Debra
I think it’s a great alternative way of doing it. I don’t always hear that coming across positively to women. It’s almost like for some women, no matter how you approach this topic, it’s gonna be the wrong way. And so partly I guess I would want him to be brave. There’s the pounding on the table and the yelling about how you’re not getting enough. That is far different to me than a man being tender, and saying, I care about you, I care about us, but let’s get honest here. I also care about me. And sure, but to say to me, I’d love you to find the lion in you, Juli. I’d love you to find and unleash that woman. I’m like, yeah, yeah. I’m from California. It’s like, I’ve been sold a bill of goods for a lot. For me, I’m listening to that and I’m thinking, yeah, you just want to have sex with So I’m not saying it’s not a good way, but I’m just saying…
Juli
What’s the ulterior motive and so maybe it’s better just to put it on the table like this is why this is so important because it’s important to me.
Debra
Well, I mean isn’t that why he’s talking to her? Because it’s important to him.
Juli
Could be. Yeah, and it is important to him. But I think there’s also this idea of women want their hearts pursued. And I know Doug does so much work. I’ve interviewed him on this podcast on this, but helping understand what is the meaning of sex for her? And how does sex become not just physical, but also an invitation to get to know like the most vulnerable parts of each other?
Debra
Here’s the deal. Yeah, I realize why that question just wouldn’t appeal to me. Okay, yes. What does sex mean to you? Yeah, most men don’t really want to hear what sex means to their wife. And they’re not going to respond well. So one of the things I tell couples, don’t ever ask a question you don’t want the answer to. Wow. So if you want the answer to that question, and you’re going to sit with it and just hold it, you’re not going to argue with her. You’re not going to try and redefine it.
Debra (36:35.98)
You sincerely want to know what does sex mean to you? Yeah. Ask that question. Okay. My experience is that as soon as she really starts to say what it means to her, it means demand. It means I don’t get to sleep tonight. It means you don’t really care that I’ve been, you know, pawed on all day. It means it’s a big disappointment because it’s never been that great for me. They don’t want to hear that. No.
Juli (37:05.342)
I could see that, especially not without a counselor to help navigate that conversation. That makes a lot of…
Debra
So that’s my concern. Yeah. But I agree. I want you to pursue my heart. At the same time, I think women have to understand that for some men, having sex with them is a genuine attempt to connect with his feelings of love for her. It’s not just, I want sex, I want an orgasm, I want… It’s like, come on, it’s efficient for a lot of men to have sex with her and then to feel like they’re bonded because of course the act of intercourse and the act of orgasm does release endorphins and it releases oxytocin and so it’s true.
Juli
They do feel closer.
Debra
He could feel really, you know, a lot closer.
Juli (38:02.838)
And it helps them feel vulnerable. And so then the emotional connection comes after. And I think you’re absolutely right. I think that there is a part of it where sex isn’t just physical for men and we simplify that. And the other thing is that men in general, especially younger men, have more difficulty putting words to their emotions, to their feelings for their wives. And so they’d rather express it. They’re more comfortable expressing it physically. And that’s important.
Debra
You know there are better and worse ways to do that. It’s just for a long time You know I’ve been in this field a long time and for a long time It was like marriage counselors and everything kept really telling men you have to connect the same way women do if you’re really mature Then you’re gonna be you know, connecting with her and like holding her heart and and all those things are really good I agree, but it was like it was like there’s just denial that there can be this other type of connection that is physical, releases these chemicals and that connection happens. Even in women within, you you take my hand or you start kind of stroking my arm within, I think it’s 15 seconds, oxytocin starts being released. Yeah. You know, so, and that’s a good thing. I want to bond with my husband. So get over here and hug me. Yeah. Okay. You know, so…
Juli
You mentioned that you have had trauma in your past and that’s a story for a lot of women. And so even this conversation about sex, like when they think about wanting to think positively about sex, they don’t even know how to do that. Right. Right. Do you ever feel like there’s a time for couples to not be pursuing sexual intercourse so that she or maybe it was he that experienced trauma, like can heal and learn to just even retrain their brains?
Debra
Yeah, a lot of us who’ve worked in trauma feel, and like I’m following sort of Wendy Malz, who is a secular author, but Wendy Malz’s model, and Kent and I had the privilege of interviewing her once and it was amazing. I’m talking to somebody who did trauma work for 40 years is and stayed in the field is amazing. Yeah. But she had it in her book, “The Sexual Healing Journey”. She has a what she calls the vacation from sex.
Debra (40:23.246)
It was so funny because I’d been using that book for over 20 years, we teach with it and stuff. You know, have to baptize it a little bit for the Christian community, but the principles are sound. And Kent was there filming and he goes, don’t call it a vacation for sex. And I just thought that was so funny. So we now call it a break. You take a break. And most, not all, but most survivors of sexual abuse need to take a break from sex. And especially childhood survivors of sexual abuse never had a chance to just develop a relationship with touch or affection that was not sexualized in some way. So they didn’t ever or rarely or a long enough period of time get to develop an innocence in touch. And so when you see that the break from sexual touch is for the purpose of allowing them to experience… But then they need to, you know, there are people who take a break from sex, but they don’t, they don’t address any.
Juli
They’re not working on it. It’s just nothing’s happening.
Debra
Yeah, we’re taking a hiatus, but we’re not doing anything. Versus, know, Wendy has a whole series of, I can’t find a good word, “baby” sex therapy exercises, but that go all the way back to holding a basket of fruit and smelling each one and feeling the texture and like being present in your body while you do these things that many children who were sexualized early didn’t have the freedom to do.
Debra (41:59.21)
And didn’t have full access to safety to experience their body in a positive way in these very non-sexual ways. the first time I saw Wendy’s exercises, and even after I started using the book, I told her later, go, I thought your exercises were really cheesy. But it’s true, like if you don’t understand that these children did not get to be children, they did not get to experience innocence, and everything got colored by that.
Debra (42:29.166)
You understand why, you you have a safe place and you have that, and then you have like drawing on the back and you have an exercise where you just, you know, use a pen like you do a twinkle or whatever those things are. And you follow and lead and stuff like that. Like all those things are things. I mean, just you’re a mom, I’m a mom. I picture my kids not ever having that. Not really. Never having a time it wasn’t innocence.
Debra
It just breaks my heart.
Juli
And so there’s a lot of healing that needs to happen and I’m grateful for the work that you do I know Cliff and Joyce Penner their book restoring the pleasure has some some exercises as well for couples Yes, in yes to go through it again. Yes reconnect What is healthy touch and how do I reframe even how I receive and give touch? But it’s an important field.
Debra
What do I do when I’m triggered during touch? Do we just stop everything or do we have a safe place to go? You know, things like that.
Juli (43:37.262)
Well friend, I hope this conversation did just a little bit to demystify female sexuality for you, whether you are a man or a woman listening. I certainly have found this conversation helpful, but I realize I need to keep learning. This is something that you feel like you need to continue to learn about. I would encourage you to check out two of our resources. One of them would be our Passion Pursuit Bible Study, which is a 10-week study going through kind of the scripture, the Song of Solomon to help wives see why sexual intimacy is important and how to begin experiencing pleasure.
The other book I would recommend is called God’s Sex and Your Marriage and that can be for you to read as a husband or a wife or as a married couple or even as a single who wants to understand God’s design for sex and marriage more thoroughly. And we will link to those resources in our show notes as well as a link to donate to Authentic Intimacy, which is just a great blessing to us. You can find all that also at our website, Authenticintimacy.com. Hey, thanks for listening and I look forward to having coffee with you next time for more Java with Juli.