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Maybe you’re already living together.
Maybe this topic feels uncomfortable.
Maybe you’ve never questioned it before.
This week, Juli unpacks what God says about living together before marriage, what (secular) research is telling us, and how covenant—not convenience—creates lasting security.
Juli (00:00.11)
Hey, welcome to Java with Juli. And I am so glad that you are here with me today for this conversation where you’ll be talking about cohabitation, which is a hot topic. So if you’re new to this podcast, I’m Juli Slattery, and this is an outreach of Authentic Intimacy, which is a ministry dedicated to helping you make sense of God and all kinds of sexual issues, including this one. And to unpack this topic with me today, are Hannah Nitz and Joe Caruso. So thanks so much for being back in the studio with me. Welcome back guys.
Hannah (00:33.966)
Thank you.
Joe (00:34.574)
Thank you, it’s good to be here.
Juli
Now, Joe, you are a pastor at Grace Church here in my hometown Akron, Ohio, and you are also on the board of Authentic Intimacy. This is the third time that you and Hannah have joined me in the studio this year. So I’m glad we haven’t scared you off yet.
Joe (00:51.566)
Not yet, not yet. Hannah’s getting close, but.
Hannah (00:56.91)
Joe, come on, cut to the heart.
Juli (01:00.298)
And Hannah, you need no introduction to Java with Juli listeners. People always come up to me and say, I love Hannah’s laugh.
Hannah (01:08.846)
You know what, I have a short list, Juli, people I always say yes to. I’ve told you this many times over the years, but you’re on the list. You’re like, hey, come talk about masturbation. I’m like, unfortunately, I have to say yes to that because I always say yes to Juli.
Juli (01:22.252)
Was this one a little easier?
Hannah (01:24.46)
This one is way easier than masturbation. I feel like. But yes, I mean, we’re talking about living together. I don’t know, is it easier? Maybe not. Because it’s something that I think has just been widely accepted as the new common practice even within the church. So maybe it’s harder than masturbation.
Juli (01:40.494)
Yeah, I don’t know. some of our listeners, it might be because this is very personal issue for them.
Joe (01:46.03)
Culture has made this a stronger assumption that of course this one’s okay. And that’s where it gets more difficult.
Hannah (01:51.232)
Yes. But yeah, so Juli, we are so excited that in June, you know, we are releasing a new version of your book called “25 Questions You’re Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy”. And Authentic Intimacy as a team was like, you know what, let’s start talking about some of these questions now as we get closer to the release of that book. And this question is high on the list of things that come in. So, a question a lot of people are asking, but maybe not even always out loud or maybe just subtly doing it. Is God okay with me living with someone if we’re not married?
Juli (02:29.09)
Yeah, boy, this is a big question. And Joe, I hang out with pastors like you all the time and they are saying like, pretty much every pre-marital conversation I have brings this one up. Or, you know, I have to ask as a pastor, almost with the assumption like, are you guys living together? Like, yeah. So I’m assuming that’s been your experience as well.
Joe (02:51.95)
100 % have not done the actual stats, but it feels like 19 out of 20 couples, regardless of their spiritual background, are already living together and sleeping together. And it’s just that one, maybe I’m like, trying to almost think through, I won’t mention any names, like, but you know, like, it’s just so uncommon.
And our culture has done such a good job, a bad job, I don’t know how to qualify it, but of making that feel normal. If not wise, if not just acceptable, prudent, almost like a no-brainer, of course you would do this. And that has crept into the church, it’s crept into Christian couples, so much so that I don’t even think they know they’re going against the traditional stance of the church.
Juli (03:40.79)
Yeah, which is why it’s so important that we talk about this. And I want to say right out of the gate, we are not just talking about your 28 year old couple. You know, we are talking about those of you who’ve been divorced or widowed or maybe never married, but you’re in your 40s or you’re even talking about couples that are in their 60s and 70s and like, Hey, yeah, I’m lonely. And I found this person I really enjoy being with, but getting married would mean that we have all kinds of financial ramifications with insurance and with trusts and end of life planning, and it’s just easier just to live together. So there are a lot of reasons why couples of all different ages are engaging and living together, having sex together, kind of being quasi-married. And again, like we said at the very beginning, this might be a really sensitive topic for you, but we don’t want to shy away from it just because it’s sensitive.
I mean, our goal really is to bring every question to light of what does God’s Word say and why would He say that? So let’s start with, you know, what’s the big deal, Joe?
Hannah (04:50.936)
What’s the big deal…
Juli
What’s the big deal about a Christian individual or a couple, you know, living together, trying out marriage before they actually get married?
Hannah (04:58.958)
Yeah, and like you said, you hear this question in your office all the time. What’s the big deal?
Joe (05:03.294)
All the time. I’ve done a lot of weddings and I’ve had probably around one out of 10 people that have asked me to do their wedding decide to not have me do their wedding because of a version of this question.
Hannah (05:17.294)
Mmm.
Juli (05:18.286)
You have decided not to do their wedding.
Joe (05:20.002)
I have decided, well, actually the decision can come from both people, but we’ll have a conversation about this topic and not to toot my own horn. I think I have it in a pretty good balanced way of like grace and truth. I don’t think I come across as someone that drops hammers, but I’m not a pushover either. I think that’s exactly how God would want me to operate in those scenarios. And I’ve had to tell some couples, I’m not comfortable doing your wedding.
You’re not showing me that you’re actually interested in God ordaining your marriage. You just want some of the officiate and that’s not my job. Or after we have that conversation, they ghost me or just tell me that we’ve gone a different direction.
Hannah (05:59.982)
We found someone else.
Juli (06:01.422)
We don’t want that kind of pastor.
Joe (06:03.468)
And sometimes it’s their brother who gets ordained on whatever online thing and.
Juli (06:08.654)
And let me just say, these are the premarital couples. we’re not talking about the couples who are just living together with marriage, not even in the future.
Joe (06:18.734)
And I have tons of those conversations too, it’s the frequency of it. It’s all over the place, I guess is really what we’re getting at. It’s, I think you’re right, Juli. It’s not just the young couples or the premarital couples. It’s the older couples that are like, I just don’t want to go through all the work of navigating the legal ramifications of getting married, or I just don’t want to do it again.
Juli (06:36.172)
I’ve been burned before. Like, this is a safer way.
Joe (06:40.046)
Gosh, and it’s, those are lies. I mean, they just are.
Hannah (06:44.312)
So what’s the big deal?
Joe
Yeah, what’s the big deal? Well, I think that any version of cohabitation before marriage, so I’m not talking about like two friends got a house together and have a split rent. I mean, like you’re dating, you’re romantically involved, and now you decide to move in together. That’s what I’m talking about.
Juli (07:02.222)
Wait, let me just go back for a minute. two friends decide to get an apartment together, split rent, male, female.
Joe (07:11.746)
No, I would not do that. I just love this example that someone else shed for me. They said, why would you put yourself in a position where if you’re trying to remain sexually abstinent, that every time your roommate walked down the hall, you’re like, gosh, I wish they would drop the towel or whatever. Like you’re just setting yourself up for failure. I mean, you’re the alcoholic at the bar with a drink in front of you saying, I’m not gonna drink.
Why are we doing this to ourselves? And so I think it’s a really bad idea for, mean, and sitcoms show that. I mean, the age old sitcom of friends. mean, like they’re just friends. They’re just, and I think every one of them eventually had some version of a sexual relationship with each other. And the show would be like, right, cause that’s how humanity works. And worse than you’re going like, right, cause that’s how humanity works. You know, so.
Juli (08:07.228)
Right.
Joe (08:09.696)
It’s just not a good idea. Even if you think, well, we’re just friends. This is probably a different episode, but there’s a version of you’re not just friends. Like I had female friends in high school that like, yeah, we were just friends. And I had no intention of pursuing them as a girlfriend. But if they had expressed that they were interested in me, I’d probably have been okay with that.
Hannah (08:32.298)
Things could change real quickly.
Joe (08:37.645)
And so it’s not that you’re not real friends or that you’re not. truly trying to be actual good platonic healthy friends. You’re just setting yourself up in a really negative way.
Juli (08:44.718)
Okay, so I derailed you a little bit. So let’s go back to the situation where you have people dating and either for romantic reasons or practical reasons, they are like, hey, you want to move in.
Joe (09:01.772)
Yeah, so I’m going to go through the bullseye and then we can hit the left and the right of it for a second. If you are a dating couple that is sleeping together or want to sleep together and you’re moving in together, it’s an awful idea and it is sinful because you’re purposefully engaging in activity that God said, I’ve reserved this between a man and a woman in marriage. And so you’re like, but we’re committed or we’re going to get married or whatever. Okay, well then commit and get married. And then God would love to bless you with this. Really the cheating of saying, want God’s gift before I’m ready to receive the gift, is what makes it sinful. At a minimum, you’re just looking at God in the eye and saying, I don’t care what you have said or what you have thrown out about what it means to be a man and a woman that have come together to build their lives together, I’m going to do it my way. And it may sound wise or prudent, but we’re just saying, I don’t want to do it the way that God has laid out. So therefore, it’s sinful.
There’s all kinds of reasons as to why that’s sinful for each other. It doesn’t just hurt your relationship with you and God. It’s going to hurt your relationship with each other even though you think you’re building on one. But then if we move to the left of that, and maybe it’s super practical. One of the couples that came to my office to get married, they said, we’ve moved together for all of the logistical reasons. We’re both from out of state. We don’t want to pay two rents, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Joe
So we moved in together and we sleep in different bedrooms and we don’t sleep together. I said, how many people do you think you could convince that that’s the life that you’re living? Their response was some version of, probably not that many, but it’s not their business anyway. And I said, that’s not what the scripture says. The scripture talks about living this life that is above reproach, that is one of integrity, the one that shines the light of Christ. And so if you have to operate in such a way that feels like a lie to everyone else that you’re living with integrity, then the way that you’re living is probably not that great. So even if two people that are 24 years old that want to get married, maybe they’re even.
Juli (10:59.022)
60 years old.
Joe
Right. But I’m going actually young on purpose. even if they’re like, we live for Jesus, we’re not sleeping together. I sleep in the basement. She sleeps on the second floor. We don’t use the same bathroom, blah, blah, blah, blah. No one believes you. No one. Like no one because back to the Friends show, because this is how humanity works. so, and anyone that’s been in a dating relationship, romantic relationship, they know how difficult it is. If they’re trying to refrain from sexual activity before they get married, how difficult that pursuit is. And so they’re like, wait a minute.
You’re endeavoring in this relationship and then one of the most difficult things a human disciplines themselves after to gift to their future spouse and you’re doing it living under the same roof, under the same schedule all the time and you’re trying to convince us that you’re not doing anything sexual. Just people don’t believe it. Even if you’re telling the truth.
I actually think this is the beginning of being a stumbling block for other people because your friends don’t believe you, your parents don’t believe you, and if they don’t believe you, what they’re also building in is cool, this couple loves Jesus and they moved in together and it worked out for them, so maybe it’s okay for me, and so now you’re becoming a stumbling block for other people. And it could just continue to cascade from there.
Juli (12:26.382)
This morning I was reading in Second Kings, which doesn’t sound very interesting to most people, but it’s going through all the kings of Judah and Israel. And it often has this phrase about kings that were good. It says, you know, they did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, however, they did not remove the high places. And this morning I happened to just like get curious about what’s the deal with the high places? Which you probably know all about as a pastor, but essentially, and you see if I got this right or wrong, but the high places were, they were created to be convenient places for people to worship God so that they didn’t have to do the journey to Jerusalem, to the temple. And it was like, yeah, you don’t have to make that long arduous journey. Like we’ll just build a place for you to worship God that’s convenient and local. And it was, a snag or a source of compromise for generation after generation after generation, because God said, no, this is where you go and this is where you worship me. And I thought about that in reference to what we’d be talking about today with this cohabitation. And it’s very similar in that even if your spirit is sort of right, like, well, we’re getting married, we’re engaged. This is convenient.
We don’t want to do the hard work of figuring out how to pay for things and waiting and asking someone, hey, can I stay at your house until we get married? It’s convenient and it’s a compromise that we’ve seen now is generation to generation where now like the average Christian thinks there’s nothing wrong with it. There’s no big deal.
Joe (14:16.598)
And you’re right, you’ve hinted at this multiple times now, and that’s not age-specific. It’s all over the place. We have this idea that we know better than God. So in terms of the high places, I can stop here and do the same thing and just as well honor God, but that’s not what He asked for.
Juli (14:33.794)
You know, I think that this is an important place for us to talk about why God created marriage, why He created sex, why He says that these things are reserved for marriage. And this is something that we’ve talked about before on this podcast, but this idea of covenant. And bottom line, you don’t live together or sleep with somebody regardless of your age or how you feel about them because you’re not in covenant with them.
Even if you’re madly in love, even if you plan to get married in six months, even if you’ve both been married twice before, it doesn’t really seem to matter. The question is, are you in covenant with them? Have you made the commitment of being in a covenant relationship with them? And what’s interesting to me, Joe, is the rationale that’s often used in our world today is this is wise to live together because you can try things out. But when we actually look at the research, the research is showing that it’s not a good idea. Like even if you take God out of the equation and you look at cohabitation versus marriage without cohabitation, you find that couples who cohabit, even before they get married and once they get married, they’re more likely to have domestic violence, infidelity, to be unsatisfied in their marriage, experience poverty, like all these kinds of things.
Juli
And they’re more likely to get divorced in the future. So, and there’s some theories around that, but I really think a lot of it is rooted in God created all of this to go with covenant. And we’ve really lost the concept of covenant in our day and age.
Joe (16:19.402)
Even if you’re… Obviously, if you’re not married, you’re not living in covenant, but I would say if you’re stepping into these cohabitating rhythms or realities, you’re not even setting yourself up to live in covenant. What you’re basically saying is, as long as this works out, I’m in. That’s not covenant relationship. I mean, so you and I have talked about this before on your podcast, covenant, it’s meant to reflect what God’s doing with us.
I mean, literally praise God, He doesn’t treat me the way that cohabitating couples treat each other. Because in my off days, weeks, months, years, if God looked at me and said, this just isn’t working out, I’m done with you. I mean, like, I’d have been toast how many dozens, if not hundreds of times since I decided I wanted to be with God. And so I’m certainly glad God doesn’t treat me like that. And I’m not supposed to treat Him like that. I don’t want to.
Because the more I discover about him, the more and more I realize discover this covenant thing was a really good idea.
Juli (17:23.202)
There’s a researcher who has spent his whole career in universities doing research on these kinds of issues. His name is Dr. Scott Stanley. And he has this framework he uses that he calls sliding versus deciding. And that when couples are cohabiting, they’re essentially saying, yeah, I’m not committed to you. I’m trying you out. And as long as you are acceptable to me as long as we’re clicking, as long as we’re still attracted to each other, then maybe we’ll keep taking steps. And even these couples like that have lived together for a long time when they do eventually get married, it’s like they slid into it where, now we have a baby together, so we should probably get married. Or one of them is saying, hey, if we don’t get married, I’m out. But you’re going into it with the mentality of I’m a consumer, you’re someone that needs to meet my standards and if you don’t meet my standards then I’m out. And his research has shown that that mentality actually follows people into marriage even if they eventually get married. And that’s some of what you’re getting at there.
Joe (18:34.124)
And even the reverse security of that, like I know couples that have lived together for years and refuse to get married and I’m trying to think to myself, what type of insecurity are you building into your partner that even now you won’t marry them? Like even now, I won’t commit to you. You’ve been together for 17 years. Yeah, but what if, holy moly, the accidental mental issues that you’re pressing into this person that you say you love because we simply won’t allow ourselves to dive into the relationship that God has set up for us. So yeah, that doesn’t surprise me that he stumbled upon or he’s researched and found that data because I feel like I’m seeing that play out relationally all the time.
Hannah (19:14.094)
Yeah. So you both have seen this a lot sitting across from couples, people who have come into your office or your inbox, Juli, and saying like, okay, we’re living together. We’re going to get married. What’s the big deal? You know, if they were sitting at this table, hearing this conversation, what pushback do you get most often from that couple as they’re hearing this conversation that are like, yeah, but.
Joe (19:37.74)
The most common is inconvenience. Which, again, if we give ourselves the 30,000 foot view of our own life, I’m like, you hear what you just said? My relationship with God and my relationship with this person that I say I love so deeply is not worth any inconveniences.
Hannah (19:56.77)
Like it’s easier this way.
Joe
So you’re only gonna do it if it’s easy, because you’re like, well, I don’t have a place to live. And you press into that, and that’s not true. I mean, a lot of the younger couples, like, they recently moved out of their parents’ place. The bedroom still has the stuff in it. You know what mean? Like, yeah, you have a place to live. You just don’t want to go back. And even if that’s a terrible environment, which I fully understand, at a minimum, I have had, we have at least a half dozen people at our church that their houses are in such a way that they have like, almost like a full suite, your own bathroom, your own apartment, your own external entry. If you want to live with us until you get married, you can. Well, blah, blah, blah, blah, You know, we can’t afford to rent. They’re not going to charge you rent. Well. It’s like, so, inconvenience isn’t it. You just want to live with your boyfriend or girlfriend, basically. Okay. So like, inconvenience has been at the top of the list. There are others, but I would say that’s the number one thing that at least comes out first.
Juli (20:58.634)
I would say the number one thing I hear would be fear, some level of fear. It can be anything from, man, I saw my parents’ marriage and it was a nightmare and I really love this person, but I just, I don’t know if I can go there. Or it can even be a fear like I mentioned at the top of the show, if you’ve been married before, maybe you were in a relationship where you jumped too quick and you’re like, I didn’t see this and all this came out later. Like, I don’t want that to happen again. So if I live with this person for a few years, I really know what I’m getting. There are some real practical issues, you know, like, and fear-based issues. I mean, you think about, let’s say we take a couple in their fifties and maybe one of them has been divorced and one of them has been widowed and they have grown children and grandchildren and it’s just too much to try to meld it all together with the finances, and your family doesn’t like my family and you’ve got all this baggage from your past I’ve got the baggage from my past but yet we still enjoy going on vacation together. We still enjoy sleeping together you know, like I’ve met couples where they both have their own apartments and they just take turns living at each other’s apartments. So, I still want my space but I want the benefit and the companionship of being with somebody.
Joe (22:27.342)
I feel like the Lord tries to help us with logic because you mentioned the person that’s afraid that they’ve been down that road before, so I’d rather live with them for a while and that way if it doesn’t work out. And in my mind, I’m like, that’s not gonna be painful. To move your lives together to where you live at the same address, you live in the same place, you live in the same bedroom, you do all these different things. And just because you’re not married when it doesn’t work out, it’s not gonna be painful. I’m like, I’ve had those people in my office too. It’s just as painful.
Juli (23:00.654)
You know, this is where it it more complex from a Christian perspective is we’re saying you’re getting married for a lifetime. Yes. There’s no out clause. Right. And so people are like, well, at least if we’re not married and we don’t make a covenant, there’s an out clause. And I think some of this comes back to we don’t know how to date well. Sure. You know, it’s like, what’s the alternative? True. You know, like if we really had a roadmap for couples, whether they’re in their 20s or in their 40s or in their 70s, of what it looks like to have a dating relationship where you’re honoring each other, you’re honoring God, but you really are getting to know one another and you’re investigating some of those potential red flags and fears and things like that. At least we’d be providing an alternative. Right now I feel like lot of couples don’t know what the alternative is.
Joe (23:52.11)
And to the context of other conversations because a lot of them, the real question they’re asking is are we sexually compatible? it’s like relationships are so much deeper than that. So if the only thing you’re even asking each other, I wonder if we have physical attraction and sexual compatibility.
Juli (24:07.862)
I don’t think women are first and foremost asking that.
Joe (24:10.86)
I would agree with that too. Yeah. So I’m certainly not, guess, making a general blanket statement.
Hannah (24:15.406)
You can talk about the boys.
Juli (24:16.416)
Yeah you talk about the boys, but I’m going to stand up for the women and say, think a lot of them are like, is this guy going to treat me well? Am I safe? You know, some of those questions.
Joe (24:24.142)
But ironically, those definitions get skewed because a man that won’t commit to you but wants to have sex with you is not treating you well and is not creating a safe environment for you. In fact, they’re creating a volatile relationship for you because I want everything that you have to offer with no commitment. And so it’s the opposite of what you’re looking for even though you’re trying to find it in those things. And so God has his reasons for setting up relationships the way that he does. He has his reasons for saying marriage is supposed to reflect the covenant that I’m making and offering to you. There’s a reason for all of that and it’s to actually avoid unnecessary pain and destruction in our lives. We’re not gonna avoid all of it, but man, if we don’t have to be the cause of most of it, that’s also pretty wonderful too.
There was neat wedding vows I heard one time and they said, I promise that I will do everything I can that life isn’t me versus you, but it’s us versus whatever we face together. And I just loved that covenant mindset. And so if you take that into dating, it’s not, do we want to have sex? Do we want to cohabitate? Do we want to figure out? It’s like, no. What if we built toward this godly, healthy relationship together? But isn’t this going be really difficult? Well, yeah, but we’re in it together.
Joe
I will honor you, I will protect you, I will, as Ephesians 5, I’ll begin to figure out what it looks like to wash and present you as clean and holy before the Lord. I want this to be something we’re excited about, something we’re not shameful about, that our parents are excited about this, our family’s excited about this, our friends are excited about this, and God is proud of this.
Juli (26:07.744)
If you go way back, like 30 or 40 years ago, a lot of the sociologists, including like a guy named Mark Regeneris, started talking about cohabitation in terms of building relationships on a man’s terms. Because historically men have been the one that have been like, yeah, I don’t want to make the commitment. It’s too much work. Like I just want your body. I just want sex.
And women are like, no, I want the security of if I get pregnant and being cared for. And he and some other sociologists talk about how pornography have really like lowered the price of commitment in some ways, where because guys can get pornography and sex is cheap, women have to expect less to be in a relationship with a man.
Juli (27:04.77)
And you have to look at some of those societal trends to see where we got to the place that we are. Because I think what you’re saying is true. Women have been now indoctrinated over the years to think, it’s too much for me to ask for a man to commit to me. And we’ve even been convinced by culture that that’s good for us, and it’s not. But most young women, and again, I think even older women would say, it’s too much for me to ask for a man to be honorable, to commit to me, to step up, to protect me, to watch out for me, to take care of my moral character and my spiritual character in a marriage relationship. And so I have to settle for this if I want to be with somebody. I don’t know. What do you think of that, Hannah?
Hannah (27:55.916)
Yeah, I know. I was just thinking about this just in different relationships in my life. And I feel like I could have read that from their journal. I mean, that very similar sentiment of like, isn’t in a way it’s like, this is a stepping stone of getting me towards marriage. So couldn’t that be seen as good? You know, it’s like, this is how I am getting closer to that commitment. It’s like it’s become one of the bases of a relationship. And I think for a lot of women out of a desire to get to the finish line of commitment, of full commitment.
Juli (28:33.998)
It’s like I’m getting them closer.
Joe (28:37.198)
I want to verbally process something, so I’m going to give that hopefully safe caveat. So I’m going to position this in an assumption, or at least in this example, that the couple is at least trying to follow Jesus. So I’ll start that premise. I think that the man that you’re describing about, if he’s a follower of Christ, wants to be that man.
But if the person he loves the most begins to say, I’ll give you myself, if that’s what it takes to stay with you, he’s put in a temptation quandary. It’s not, it is character. It’s not the woman’s fault. But he’s like, well shoot. Now every time I look at this person I love, I have to make a decision every time. Am I going to pursue Jesus or am I going to take what she’s offering me? Whereas like, the man is, the man that’s pursuing Jesus is begging for that helper. It’s on them to keep it in their pants.
But if the woman is also committed, it makes it easier to remain committed. It’s again, it’s 100%. I mean, if it’s consensual, it’s both of them, but it’s their own decisions. But if one of them is like, no, I’m not going there. And the other one’s like, well, I don’t wanna go there either. You suddenly just made it easier and more healthy dating commitment as opposed to, well, this is what it’s gonna take to stay with you. I’ll give it to you. Well, now.
Hannah (30:15.584)
It’s all of a sudden the time on the table.
Joe (30:17.036)
It’s on the table as opposed to that it wasn’t on the table. Yeah. And then back to the topic of this podcast, cohabitation feels like it’s always on the table. And so like,
Juli (30:27.054)
But who’s asking for it? I mean, I think that’s what it goes back to because, you know, yeah, there are certain situations where a Christian woman might say, if this is what you want, I’ll give it to you. But I think from what I’m hearing, a lot of it is the guy asking, the Christian guy assuming. And so that’s when the Christian woman’s like, well, yeah, I guess it is assumed or I guess it is what you expect. Like I can’t tell you how many Christian women are like, if I could only find a guy who would have integrity, but every Christian dating app I go on, every guy I go out with, regardless of the age, even if he’s a strong Christian is coming with the assumption, not if we will have sex, but we’ll be three weeks into the relationship or six months into the relationship.
Joe (31:17.006)
I would say that’s very much the trend. I do see both. I have seen women where that was like the only way they knew to have a relationship from quote-unquote their past life. And so they don’t know how to build intimacy with their new person without going there.
Juli (31:34.21)
or to feel loved without going there.
Joe (31:46.282)
And in the context of this conversation, if that’s the type of man you’re with, and then he’s like, let’s sleep together, let’s move in together, your yes is your integrity that you’re giving up. So even if the man is at fault, I want to sleep with you, I want to move in with you, you saying okay to those things is on you. He’s already leading you in this sense, so it’s also on him, but you don’t have to say yes. You don’t have to stay in that relationship. And if you’re I do need to stay in that relationship because I want somebody, well, that’s where we’re starting to enter into conversation is your dating relationship, your idol.
Do you trust God? Do you trust him for the life that’s in front of you, regardless of who it’s with or not with? Or do you not trust him and therefore I have to stay with this person in front of me, even though they’re leading me down a path I’m not comfortable with? Because the latter is where we end up in these statistics where everybody’s cohabitating. And it is amazing how many times when I have that conversation in my office and all the weddings I’ve done or not done, how often you can see a glint in one of their eyes, like, I never actually wanted to do this. But they let, they leaned themselves, let themselves, they gave themselves so fully to that relationship that they bent their convictions, they bent their integrity because they wanted to hold on to that relationship more than anything else, even if it meant giving up something.
Juli (33:04.906)
And I’ve seen that lead to resentment as you get into marriage where it’s like, boy, I really feel like you defiled me, like forced me into this. And yeah, I mean, that’s why again, we see the trail effect of these trends even going into marriage. It’s not like once you get married, all the effects end. It like follows you into it.
Hannah (33:26.382)
So for someone who’s listening to this, you know, let’s say someone sent them this podcast or they clicked on it because they are living with their boyfriend You know, this has been where they’ve been at for a while Do you guys have any encouragement to the person who in their head is thinking it’s kind of too late? You know, we’re already there. We’re already living together. Like this all sounds nice, but yeah, we’re it’s we’re too late.
Joe (33:50.766)
Maybe, maybe I’m not remembering, that’s a possibility, but many of the couples that I’ve worked with in these scenarios have made a decision to do one of two things. They realize for the first time, I probably shouldn’t have been doing this, this is not healthy for us in our relationship with God, and so they get married very, very, very quickly. Within a couple of weeks, maybe within a month.
But they’re like, I want to rectify this. I do want to commit to this person. I do want to enter this covenant relationship and they get married quickly is the key here. And many of the others, they will figure out a way to basically restart their mindset of dating and marriage, and they move out, and they commit to abstinence for that next season. Where I’m maybe not remembering, but I’m pretty sure I do, no couple that I’ve worked with that has chosen to do one of those two things regrets it.
Juli (34:44.984)
Mm.
Joe (34:45.71)
They’re like, it resets something in us. It reset the focus of what relationships are supposed to be. It reminded us that relationships are not just about sex. It reminded us all these different things. It set us on a trajectory of maybe we should follow Christ in our relationship, not just whatever we wanna do with our lives. Like, so many healthy things can come out of that.
Joe (35:11.032)
And again, I’ve had couples… come back to my office in tears, thanking me. We didn’t know this was possible. We didn’t know, like, they just didn’t know. That’s okay. But when you do know, and you do realize this because God’s trying to take you to a much healthier place, a much more wonderful place, like, it becomes more of a what if. It’s not a burden to grab ahold of, it’s a gift to embrace.
Juli (35:37.39)
And I would say there’s a third category there too, which I’m sure you’ve seen where the conviction is I need to break up with this person. You know, like I’m in a cohabiting relationship, we’re living together, we’re sleeping together. I know this person isn’t right for me, but I’m just lonely and I’m afraid if I let go of this person, there’s not going to be somebody else.
Hannah (36:01.077)
Or, I’m embarrassed to let go.
Juli (36:03.82)
Yeah, you know, but I think even more than embarrassed it, or it’s the feeling like I’ve already tainted myself. I’ve already given so much of who I am away to this person that there’d be nothing left. Yeah, so I just want to say to that individual, like if the Holy Spirit is convicting you, it’s not about even the hope that you gave about, oh someday you’ll have a better relationship.
Juli (36:33.334)
Ultimately, for all of us, it’s about am I living my life based on worldly wisdom or do I really trust God to heal me, to redeem my story, to provide for me? And that’s putting Isaac on the altar. It’s saying, I will take the step of trusting, I don’t know how you’re going to do it, God, but trusting that you are good and that you will be with me and that you’ll provide for me.
Juli
And that is just such a beautiful decision to make and one that God honors.
Hannah (37:07.02)
Juli, I think both what you shared and Joe at the end here, I just love the hope at the end of the story because it’s not just, okay, don’t do this, while that is part of it, it’s this beautiful story of like the invitation of meeting God in your relationship and you’re never too far. Like you’re never too far down this road to say there isn’t hope because the goodness of God who meets us in the messiest of messy situations, he always shows up.
Juli (37:37.036)
Yeah, and again, I’m always coming back to that listener who is maybe a little bit older and you’re convicted. And I would just say, have the courage to tear down the high place, not just for your sake, but you have children and grandchildren and people you’ve witnessed to who are watching. And what a beautiful testimony to say, I’m repenting.
You know, I want to live set apart for God. Again, the beauty of that heritage of even the people who know you and love you seeing that decision, boy, God just can redeem in so many amazing ways. And that’s why we do this podcast. That’s why we have the ministry, Authentic Intimacy, so that us as a people of God can continually be reminded what it is to pursue Him first and foremost.
Hannah (38:33.327)
Well, we’d love to know more as you’ve listened to this conversation of what you’ve thought just about this whole topic about things that Joe and Juli have both brought up today. So we would love to see messages from you. We’d love a rating or a view of the podcast, anything that you can get in touch with us and let us know.
Also, as always, we’d love for you to share the episode with a friend just to start with the conversation. Maybe this is something that you’ve been working through and trying to figure out. I love the idea of you having a trusted friend that you can say, hey, can you listen to this with me and help me figure this out? As always, we have so many follow-up resources. We have “Surrendered Sexuality”, a Juli Slattery classic, which is such a beautiful way to walk out the story of God and sexuality, “God’s Sex and Your Marriage”, and of course, waiting for the June release of the “25 Questions That You’re Afraid to Ask”.
And Juli, I know that you’re also rewriting a book that some of our single listeners are going to get very excited about.
Juli (39:31.118)
I am. I’m in the middle of rewriting “Sex and the Single Girl”. So yeah, that’s another one that people have gone through in the past and really benefited from, but it needed an update. And so I’m updating and expanding that one as well. Should be out this fall.
Hannah (39:47.31)
Love it. So as always, an unending pile of blogs, of question and answer videos, of podcast episodes, just like this one at Authenticintimacy.com.
Juli (39:56.832)
And thanks for joining me for this conversation for all that you both brought. And so it makes so much more fun than me just trying to figure all this stuff out by myself.
Hannah (40:05.774)
We couldn’t leave you hanging like that.
Juli
Yeah. So thank you. Yeah. And this podcast would mean nothing if you as a listener weren’t listening. So thanks so much for listening. And I do look forward to having coffee with you next time for more Java with Juli.