As we wrap up 2025, this is the conversation God put on Juli’s heart.
Juli and Hannah sit down to talk about how we love each other when we disagree. This conversation invites you to rethink how you engage in tough conversations and what it really means to contend for truth with love.
Give to Authentic Intimacy today! Between now and January 31st, your gift will be matched dollar-for-dollar—up to $70,000.
Juli (00:00.846)
Welcome to Java with Juli. I am Juli Slattery and I’m so glad that you’re here. Now this podcast is an outreach of Authentic Intimacy and we are so grateful as we wrap up 2025 and think about all the things that God has done within and through this ministry. And as someone who joins me here on Java with Juli each week, you are part of that.
I get so much joy when I get to hear from you about how this podcast has helped you on your journey of making sense of God and sexuality. Now, you know, I believe we absolutely need to be rooted in a biblical understanding of God’s design for sexuality. But as we talk about topics like that, we can’t lose the heart of the gospel and what it practically means to be united as the bride of Christ.
In our conversations about sexual matters, there can be a lot of disagreement in the church, particularly over some of the nuances. We’ve hit on some of those this year, like whether you should use preferred names and pronouns, whether it’s okay to use birth control, and what it looks like to be a biblical husband or wife. Now, I want to clarify that pursuing unity doesn’t mean that we water down theology or we ignore sin.
You know, here on Java with Juli, we often live in this tension of really wanting to stand on biblical truth related to difficult issues, but also pursuing unity with our brothers and sisters. And I hope as you’ve listened to this podcast, you’ve heard that tension. Now the conversation you’re going to hear today is all about this. It was recorded a little bit over a year ago and Hannah Nitz joined me, but it speaks directly and how we hold those two things together, truth and love, conviction with humility.
And as I thought about how I wanted to wrap up 2025, this is a conversation that God put on my heart. There really is no greater challenge for us than to love God and to love each other well. And as you listen, if what you hear resonates with you, I’m going to ask you if you’ll consider partnering with us as we continue to bring you conversations about God and sexuality that tackle honest questions and real life sexual pain in ways that actually build up the body of Christ, not tear it down.
Juli (02:15.766)
As we’re closing out the year, we are so close to our annual fundraising goal. We’re at about 95%. Will you help us get over that line? When you get between now and the end of the year, your gift is going to be matched dollar for dollar. And I’m super excited about some of the things that we’re working on for 2026 that will make these kinds of resources more accessible for everyone.
I can’t wait to tell you about some of the projects we’re working on for both individuals and to equip Christian leaders around the world. And if you want to join in that work that we’re doing at Authentic Intimacy, please do so by giving. You can go to authenticintimacy.com/give and make a donation today. And we’ll drop that link in our show notes as well. Okay. Let’s head to the coffee shop and wrap up this year of Java with Juli.
Juli (03:12.302)
Well Hannah, thanks so much for joining me. This is an important conversation.
Hannah
So right before you hit record, I got to let the folks at home know what you said.
Juli
What’d I say?
Hannah
You said, Hannah, I am very passionate about this topic. I am. Which I’m going be honest, I don’t hear you say that very often before we hit record. No. You got some vigor. got some, some passion with this one.
Juli (03:34.338)
I do.
Hannah
All right. Let the people know Juli, what are we talking about?
Juli
Oh dear.
Hannah
Oh dear?
Juli (03:40.174)
Yeah, I mean we’re gonna talk about like, how do you love people well when you disagree? Particularly on the topic of sexuality, we’re gonna talk about Christian cancel culture. And I am really passionate about this.
Hannah
Yeah, let’s kick it off. Tell us why. Why are you so passionate about this? And I don’t think you would have said that five years ago…
Juli
No, like actually today I was reviewing a blog that I had written like four years ago and I changed a lot of the wording.
Hannah
Around the idea of cancel culture?
Juli
No, it wasn’t about cancel culture, but it was just, it was more combative. Like not combative, but like more here’s the line in the sand, like people who don’t agree, you know, are kind of, are kind of coming after us.
Juli (04:34.796)
I feel so strongly about this Hannah because I’ve become convinced reading the New Testament that Jesus really, really cares about unity. That there’s one church, there’s one spirit. Jesus died on the cross, it says in Ephesians to tear down the barrier of hostility. That he would reconcile in himself us to God. Like, the unity of, there’s one body of Christ, and, we’ll talk about in this podcast how theology is important, how discerning truth is important, but I think in our pursuit of discerning truth, we are just stabbing the body of Christ, we’re just cutting off pieces of the body of Christ.
Hannah
So tell us how you see that happening. Like what’s an example of that or like where are we cutting people off or how is this happening?
Juli
Boy, I think there’s so many examples. mean, we’re such a divided culture and we’re such a divided, like even Protestantism and all of it, like religion. There’s tons of examples, but the water that I swim in is around sexuality. And so you have people within this field of Christian sexuality that despise each other. You know, that like write books and have podcasts and blogs and the whole purpose of them is like, wanna tell you why this person is wrong, and I wanna tell you why not to trust this person and why this author is horrible. And then I get emails and people coming to me and saying, wait, here’s two people that I’ve learned from and I respect, and now they can’t be in the same room together.
Hannah
Both Christian Both authors, teachers, something…
Juli (06:30.584)
And not just Christians, but I would say committed to biblical truth. They are followers of Jesus Christ. So I see this happening in the sphere of sexuality related to how we nuance the LGBT conversation. And I see it happening in terms of how we address abuse within the church and divorce and how we talk about sex. And it’s just, I think these conversations are hugely important. I think we are on a big learning curve on all those issues, Hannah, and we need to have leaders and thought leaders and people who are searching the scriptures to have these conversations and discern truth. But the way it’s happening is we’re pursuing truth at the expense of learning to love each other well, learning to learn from each other. And it breaks my heart.
There’s a lot of things I do in the ministry that I have an Authentic Intimacy that break my heart. And one of them is this topic is just, how divisive we become, like I could just cry.
Hannah
I see that in your face as you’re talking.
Juli
Yeah, just, it really breaks my heart. And I hope and pray that it breaks my heart because it breaks God’s heart. That God is not gonna give all truth to one person. Like he put us in a body and created us as a body so that we would have to learn to be humble, to work together, to be gentle and gracious in the areas that we disagree in.
Juli (08:01.58)
I just feel like it doesn’t matter how much we can articulate truth well, if we’re not living in a way that is drawing people to the love of Christ, it doesn’t matter. So that’s why I’m so passionate about it.
Hannah
Wow. That was a good opening.
Juli
It was a little deep.
Hannah
It’s a little deep, but it’s, it’s honest. It’s powerful. it’s man. I mean, so the beginning, you were saying this is the water I swim in. Essentially the visual picture I had as you were talking about that is if all of us are kind of swimming in the same pond, kind of what you see happening is like a group of fish go into one corner and building their own little gate.
Juli
Yeah
Hannah (08:44.266)
And are like, we agree on Jesus. We agree on these other things, but like, if you talk about sexuality and you include this, when you’re saying LGBT, you can’t come in. I can’t learn from you. I can’t endorse anything you’re doing. Is that it? Like there’s these firm lines that you see or also just like this combativeness towards each other.
Juli
It’s these firm lines. It’s not a willingness to say, hey, you see this from a different perspective. I don’t agree, but let me understand how you got there. And let me leave some room for grace and conviction of the Holy Spirit, even when I don’t agree. And let me be asking the Lord, what does it look like to love you well in this space?
Hannah
So I guess I would argue though that this doesn’t feel new. Like this feels like this has always been happening. Like, I mean, if we think about in denominations, right? Isn’t this kind of what happened with the church?
Juli
Oh it is. I mean, like, it dawned on me about a year ago, there are no denominations in the Bible except for the Scribes, the Pharisees and the Sadducees and the Zealots. The religious leaders that Jesus was not happy with, they were the ones that had denominations. But if you read the New Testament, the churches were identified by their location. So the church of Ephesus or Berea, but they were unified. And we’ve just grown up so much with this idea of denominations that it feels like, yeah, of course.
Hannah (10:18.506)
And I’m trying to remember what book this was that I read that I think it was, I can’t remember the country, which doesn’t make the story very good, that it was a country that someone had gone to seminary in and they had written that churches in this country did not have denominations and you just went to the church that was closest to you. And that was normal. Like nowadays this is still happening. And I remember reading that being like, huh, that’s fascinating.
Juli
No, like with the persecuted church there are not denominations. It’s like, you love Jesus? Oh my goodness. Yeah, let’s worship together.
Hannah
So why do we do this?
Juli
Boy, that’s a big question. I don’t know that I have one answer.
Hannah
What’s causing this, that we don’t think we need each other, in pride that we think we have all the answers, a fear that we don’t?
Juli (11:07.032)
First of all, I think it’s a lot of that. I first of all, let’s take a step back and say we have the luxury of having denominations.
Hannah
Capital L.
Juli
I mean, we do. Like we have the time to sit around and think about, you know, like what’s my theology on baptism and, you know, like do I think we should use preferred pronouns? And like we have the space.
Juli (11:33.878)
And the luxury of that instead of like I said in the persecuted church or in places where there are very, very few Christians, it’s just like, hey, let’s link arms together. And I’ve been in places like that in other countries where it’s like, there is no such thing as denominations. It’s like, do you love Jesus? Yeah. Okay. Well, let’s, yeah, let’s work together. So I do think it’s a luxury. I think, and I’m not a church historian, but the little bit I know, with the Protestant Reformation, the scripture became so important and it is so important, but we began to put all the emphasis on what is your doctrine and not on our experience with God and not on how are we living, how are we loving well. And so in the modern Western Protestant church, all the focus on whether or not you’re a good Christian is what you believe. Instead of some of those other applications of what it is to walk with God.
Hannah
So we’ve seen this in the Christian faith and now you’re saying more specifically in the last five, 10 years, you’re seeing it to a new degree when it comes to issues around sexuality. Why is that?
Juli
Well, because the conversation about sexuality is heated up
Hannah (12:50.343)
Just in culture.
Juli
Yes, and because it’s heated up in culture, we’ve been forced as Christians to look more deeply at what do we really believe? Like, what do we really believe about God’s design for sex? And what do we really believe sex should look like within marriage? And what do we really believe about whether or not this situation lends itself to being free to divorce and remarriage?
Juli (13:15.566)
What do we believe about gender and sexual attraction and same sex relationships? So a lot of those questions really weren’t in the forefront of people’s minds until really the last decade. And now they’ve all come out. If you look at, you know, the, Obergefell decision, if you look at what’s happening with gender and just our understanding of gender and transgender, you look at the Me Too movement that has brought out all this abuse. Now, Christians are like, what do we do with this? We have no role models who can guide us through that.
Hannah
And we’re just all trying to figure it out. And now we’re just latching arms with people who agree with us on that.
Juli
Right?
Hannah
And being like, okay, cool, you see this too, then me too. And not all these other Christians.
Juli
I mean it just it feels good when you feel insecure to surround yourself with people who agree with you.
Hannah
Oh it feels great.
Juli
It feels very unsettling when you feel insecure to be around people who again are Christians who see some of these issues differently. It’s like wait like I don’t know what I believe now.
Hannah (14:28.216)
So it sounds great, but it also sounds messy to like fly back into this open pool and just be like, you love Jesus, I love Jesus, we cool with all the other stuff, you know?
Juli
And that’s not what I’m suggesting.
Hannah
I know you’re not, but I’m just, but it’s like, how do we fight against this division while still having these hard conversations about what does God see in these important issues?
Juli
You know, Hannah, doctrine is very important. know, like when you read, I think it’s in 2 Timothy, where Paul is saying there will be times in the end days where people will warm themselves into homes and, you know, there’ll be teachers that want to tickle itching ears. And Paul called out heretics and he called out people that were teaching a false gospel and he called out people that were using the gospel for personal gain.
And now he had an authority that we don’t have, but I do think we’ve got to take seriously that there are wolves in every flock. There are people who want to draw people away from the true faith and we’re told to be alert and to contend for the faith. And so, yeah, all that is true. And it’s true within the space of sexuality. You know that, like you know how passionate I am about that. And we need to have those conversations.
Juli
And there really are, when we have divergent views on some things, it really is a break fellowship situation. You know, if somebody says, I believe God created us to have sex with whoever we want to have sex with, you know, like it’s all about satisfying your own desires, I’m like, okay, that’s not biblical. You’re departing from truth. But what I’m talking about, Hannah, is not those issues. I’m talking about the nuance of how we walk this out.
You know, people that would say it’s always wrong to use somebody’s preferred name or pronoun and another person saying it’s always right to use it. Okay, this is a nuance of how we walk out Christian truth or is it okay to go to a gay wedding? Some people would say never or always like, okay, this is a nuance of how we walk out Christian truth.
Hannah (16:49.934)
And then what you’re saying is the people who say never are always are then completely writing off the people who would give the opposite answer.
Juli
Yeah, and essentially making judgments about how they came to that conclusion or about their love for God or their commitment to biblical truth. And I’m saying actually those people can learn a lot from each other. I’ve learned a lot from both of them. I love talking to different people who have a commitment to Christ and are very thoughtful on these issues. And I love hearing when they disagree, like why they disagree, and taking them back to the scripture.
And even looking, Hannah, like they weren’t talking about these issues in the New Testament, but they had issues like this that the church almost split over. One of the biggest ones was whether Gentiles had to basically adhere to the Jewish law, whether they had to be circumcised, whether they had to be ceremonial clean, whether they could eat with the Jewish people. And Peter and Paul, like, hugely disagreed on this. And it could have split the church. And if you read Paul’s letters at describing this, like he had some pretty strong words for Peter. But what they did is they got together. Like the church leaders got together for several days, they prayed, they sought the Lord and they came away with it. There’s still things we disagree on, but here’s what we will agree on. And they unified over it. And it’s like, so we have examples of the process of how to do this. But we’re not doing this.
Hannah (18:26.666)
Okay. So a couple of things, I have so many thoughts on this. One, I think one of the cool things for me, knowing you, you know, my whole life is this is something that I’ve always seen you model well behind the scenes or people wouldn’t see and know and in public spaces. And I’ve watched you do this, like even when you receive emails from listeners, who completely disagreed with something you said, I’ve been shocked at how many times you take that personal email and write them, not apologizing, not like, I’m so sorry I offended you or not completely writing them off, like, well, let me double down on what I said, but on you asking them questions. And that has taught me so much.
I’ve shared the story before. I remember probably 10 years ago, you and I were discussing something about voting and I had an opinion on something different than yours. And I was afraid to say it out loud because of my experience of anytime I verged from anything that felt like a very traditional evangelical answer, you know, and you looked at me, we were sitting on your back porch and you said, can you tell me more on why you think that? And I was like, what? I was just ready for you to like come with why I shouldn’t think that or feel that way. So I’ve watched you do that behind the scenes again. I’ve seen you do that with me with issues that you and I over the years have not seen eye to eye on. To our average listener who is listening to this conversation and being like, man, I may not be, you know, someone of this like, authority or following that’s telling people, know, don’t listen to them. Don’t do this. Like drawing the big lines in the sand, but maybe feeling a little conviction myself. like, man, there are a lot of people I write off because I don’t agree with all of these steps or points or things. Like, where do we even begin to fight against this cancel culture?
Juli (20:42.702)
Yeah, yeah I think some of it is, like I shared Hannah, like having the conviction of how much God loves unity in his body. know, and like I remember recently reading in Revelation, the seven churches and the description of the seven churches and some of the churches were like theologically really sound, but they’d lost their first love or the churches were like committed to serving, but they had engaged in sexual immorality. And it struck me, these are all churches that God is addressing. Like they’re all part of who he desires to be in the family of God.
Whereas we would just say, okay, this one church, you know, is the only true church. And I just keep reading in scripture, how important it is. It says in the scripture, make every effort to work towards the unity of the body. And that doesn’t just mean the unity of those that I agree with, it means like.
Hannah
Or the unity of people who go to the same physical church I go to.
Juli
Yes, you know, like, or the unity of those who have the same ethnic background I have. There is one church, there’s one Holy Spirit, there’s one savior, there’s one God. What does it look like for me to make every effort to work towards the unity of those who aren’t Christ Jesus? So I think it starts with that conviction, which makes us begin to realize like how much we’ve gotten sucked into the thinking of this culture. This culture is so divisive.
Juli (22:25.204)
in general we don’t do this well.
Hannah
In any topic.
Juli
No. mean, it’s like you can agree with nine things, but if we disagree on that tenth, like all of a sudden I don’t know if I can trust you. And so it’s becoming convinced of that that is what a Christ follower does.
Hannah
Oh we’re such a mess with this.
Juli
We are. And I think it’s asking God to teach us how to love well.
Juli (22:54.05)
It’s taking seriously the call to be humble, you know, like to engage in conversation with the framework of not what can I say to prove my point, but what can I learn? This person is seeing life differently than I am.
Hannah
Juli, you always kick me in the butt with this talk on humility.
Juli
Yeah? Why’s that?
Hannah
You at some point told me it was like a way you defined humility was any person you interact with always feeling like you had something to learn from them. I think about that like twice a day. I’m dead serious ever since you told that to me, but that is such a foundation for this whole conversation. Cause when we go into relationships, reading a book written by someone with this constant like does this line up with what I think as opposed to what do I have to learn? Man, that’s a whole different outlook.
Juli (23:50.028)
It is a different outlook, you know, it’s a different challenge. But at the same time, like knowing the spirit of God within us is working towards unity. He’s teaching us to love, but he also is teaching us to stand on truth. And you know, like, cause you’ve walked some road with me, there are people and there are issues and there are conversations that I’m like, that is just not of God. Like we’ve got to stand on that. Like we got to stand against that.
So it’s also not being afraid to say the hard things when they need to be said.
Hannah
Man, I have two different friends that I think of with this conversation who model this really well for me. One is my friend Amanda. And there has been multiple times where I’ve been in groups with her and someone will bring up something about a different church. Her and I don’t even go to the same church, but another church will be brought up or just, you know, these comments that come up in Christian circles and Amanda every time shuts it down so quick. And is like, we’re all in the body of Christ and we need that church just as much as we’re needed. And she’s so quick to do it, so loving, but it is like in her mind, she loves the bride of Christ and it’s not just lip service. It’s not just something she says. Like I watch her defend his bride. And I’ve seen her do it multiple times.
Another example is my friend Noel, who every year hosts this like get together essentially, this like women’s conference, this like gathering here in Ohio. And she’s so big on it not being hosted at a church or like being a part of a denomination because she just wants to see the body of Christ come together, unified on Jesus and nothing else. And every year when I step into it, I’m like, isn’t it weird how rare this is?
Hannah (25:54.024)
Because we’re used to going to the event that’s just at our church or just with our denomination. And I think both that experience of this like gathering and intentionality that Noel has done with that, watching my friend Amanda like defend the bride of Christ are both good examples to me of like people who fight against this big division within the church.
Juli
And what I love about that Hannah is they do it in different ways based on their gifting, their personality, but they have the same focus. So I want to read to you two quotes.
Hannah
Great.
Juli
Okay. You know, I like to read the dead old guys.
Hannah
They had this problem even back then?
Juli
Yeah, they did. Okay. So here’s a quote from Watchman Nee that really impacted me. To bring error to the church’s carnal. But to divide a church on account of error may also be carnal. To have constant and close association with people whose interpretation of scripture does not agree with our own is hard for the flesh, but good for the spirit. God does not use division to solve these problems. He uses the cross.
Hannah
The word. Wow.
Juli
I know. Isn’t that crazy?
Hannah
Wow, I don’t even have a follow-up sentence to that. Why do we just want to do the division? Because of our flesh?
Juli
I think so. I think like when I read that phrase to have constant and close association with people whose interpretation of scripture does not agree with their own is hard for the flesh, but give for the spirit. Okay, how often do I do that? Like how often do I want to have constant close association with Christians who see it’s interpretation of scripture in different ways, differently.
Hannah (27:41.454)
I kind of think I was taught that we’re not supposed to do that.
Juli
Yeah. I know. Yeah. So how does Jesus use the cross to deal with it?
Hannah
Cause it’s the ultimate one unifier.
Juli
Right.
Hannah
It’s like, if you put your eyes here, man, this is it. Juli, do you remember you and I had a conversation about communion sometime in the last, and we talked about how in church history, communion used to be the center of the church gathering.
Juli (28:15.958)
I heard that from Francis Chan. Yeah.
Hannah
It wasn’t the pastor.
Juli
No.
Hannah
It wasn’t a sermon.
Juli
It wasn’t the pulpit. Everybody would look through the table with the elements. So I’d be looking at you through the table of the elements.
Hannah
And that was what the gathering was. was, it was like literally coming together to focus on what Jesus did, us literally eating and drinking of his flesh as he says, and not like, here’s my three point sermon on what I think this verse in Timothy means.
Juli
Right
Hannah
That’s just fascinating.
Juli
It’s a level set.
Hannah
I know.
Juli (28:58.06)
Okay, here’s another quote.
Hannah
I don’t know if I’m ready for it.
Juli
Yeah, this is a good one. This is Oswald Chambers. God never gives us discernment in order that we may criticize, but that we may intercede.
Hannah (29:11.222)
And I don’t love that one, I’m gonna be honest.
Juli
Why’s that?
Hannah
It’s just a lot easier to criticize. I’m not saying this is good. I’m just confessing from my own wrestling. It’s just such a constant dance of humility because I, even in myself, Juli, see over the last few years of experiencing more of God and knowing more of God and being with him more. It’s tempting for me to look back on the 10 years ago, Hannah even, and want to criticize how she interacted with God. Be like, man, what were you doing? You know, but that quote of not interacting with others who are part of the body of Christ to criticize, but to build up even when things look and feel so different.
Juli (30:05.326)
Yeah, it’s just, can you have grace on Hannah 10 years ago that she was doing the best she could where she was? And I’m the same way with Juli, 10, 20, 30 years ago. I just recently was in the town of Wheaton where I went to college and it brought back all these memories of the stupid things I did in college. Like, oh man, relationships I blew up. It’s like, okay, can I have compassion and grace for that 20 year old kid who was trying hard but all messed up? You know, because God has grace and compassion. And so can I extend that same grace or compassion with somebody who loves Jesus but sees something very differently and be curious about their story, be curious about like what they’ve experienced that brought them to that place?
And there’s a time to have the hard conversation. There’s a time to really sort these things out. Can we do that as the letters in the New Testament keep telling us, like with all humility, with grace, with patience, with gentleness? If we had these conversations with those character qualities, how different would they be?
Hannah
It kind of seems like this is a conversation you wish we could just have the whole body of Christ here at once.
Juli
Yeah it does, or even just, you know, like, I’m like, man, how do we get people in a room who love Jesus and disagree on this stuff and put him first, you know?
Hannah (31:40.748)
Instead of having a panel of people who all have different opinions hashing it out.
Juli
Yeah, or just gathering with people who keep reinforcing our own view. Again, the criteria is they love Jesus, they’ve given themselves to the Lord, they come under the authority of scripture. Those are key. But within that, what does it look like?
Hannah
So could I push you a tad on this?
Juli
Please.
Hannah
So could you maybe tell me then in a room what other opinions you would want in the same room as you that would be differing from you?
Juli (32:17.912)
To some extent, Hannah, I feel like I get to do that on this podcast. That’s true. It’s like a year ago or so, I had both Christopher Yuan on and then Greg Coles really disagree about whether you should ever go by the label gay Christian. I wanted to hear both of their perspectives.
Hannah (32:39.458)
Yeah and you had them on like back to back.
Juli (32:45.184)
Or I’ve had people on that feel very strongly that you shouldn’t. ever use preferred names and pronouns in people who think that you should. Or go to gay weddings. Or even just some of the tension around divorce and how about pornography? Is pornography grounds for divorce? Or how much do you walk that road with somebody who has a sexual addiction and how much do you just like, nope, I’m out. So those are some examples of the nuance of we’re all trying to follow scripture, but we’re gonna see this differently.
Hannah
Yeah and I, and you’re saying like, I invite that difference under the cross-
Juli
Because it is like walking this stuff out is so messy. You know, and every situation is different and a lot of these things we really don’t have a lot of church history to look back on and actually if the Lord tarries we will be the church history, which is scary. People are gonna look back and be like, yeah, they got that wrong or this person got this piece right, but they really got that wrong.
So I just…Yeah, I love what I get to do because I’m reading all these different people, I’m listening to them, I get the opportunity to talk to them. And I can see where they’re coming from even if uncertain things, I don’t align with where they landed.
Hannah (34:07.562)
So for those of us who are wanting to maybe engage in this more in our own circles of saying like, man, how do I disagree with someone? Stand on what truth matters. Love them in the body of Christ. Like practically, what does that mean, you know?
Juli
We model this in our ministry, but we’re not gonna name names. Yeah. And I get, I get, I get emails all the time. Like, what do you think of this author or why don’t you speak against this or, you know, and I’m just not going to do that. Like I’m not going to tear down other people and I’m going to give a wide berth for what God is doing in them and through them. And even if we don’t completely align. And I think that’s true in our personal life too.
It’s really interesting, I had this feeling like about 15 years ago, because about probably about 15 or 20 years ago, I became more in public ministry. And I remember before that time talking about people who are in public ministry, being critical of them. Like, I can’t believe this guy said this, or I don’t agree with this, or what is she thinking here? And then it dawned on me, I am one of those people that people could be talking about.
Hannah
Not a great feeling.
Juli
No, and they don’t know my heart. Like what if they just read a paragraph and they made all kinds of assumptions based on what somebody said and it’s happened multiple times. That doesn’t feel good to not be like understood for my heart and where I’m coming from, my love for Jesus. And even being able to have grace for getting it wrong sometimes.
Juli (35:53.976)
So for me that was like a, man if I don’t like that like how do I love other people the way that I wanna be loved? Which is the golden rule. How do I show them the same grace and mercy that I want to experience? And so I think we’ve gotta be really careful not to ever take people out of context, not just to throw grenades at them, whether it’s in personal conversation or on social media or in more public way.
I think also talking in terms of like, Scripture is very clear in some things and we need to stand in those things. But beyond that, I think we need to use terms like my conviction is instead of, like this is what you should believe.
Hannah
Instead of, thus says the Lord.
Juli
Like, yeah, this is a hard thing, but I’ve studied the scripture or I’ve wrestled through this. This is where my conviction is. And we see in scripture that there’s a lot of room for that. It’s like if something violates your conscience, it’s wrong to you.
Juli (36:51.724)
And so like another topic is masturbation. You know, it’s like, there are some people who feel like I’m convicted that that’s always wrong. And if that’s your conviction, then to engage in it is sin. But there’s also, okay, let me leave room for people to work out some of this stuff for themselves and for God to bring conviction and guidance in His way. So I think it’s holding some of those things loosely like this is what God’s convicted me of, but I’m giving you room to go on that journey for yourself with the Lord.
Hannah
You know, I think those are really practical things, Juli, and on this like individual level relationships, you know, things we’re engaging in our own church, our own conversation. It is interesting as we’re talking about this though, I’m just even thinking about this kind of like cancel culture feel that I’ve been drawn to in ways that don’t feel as personal. Like I remember when the podcast, like the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill came out about this like huge church falling. I was like, oh baby, I’m gonna listen to this, you know? Or there’s been all these different documentaries on, I think there’s one on Hillsong, like different like worship groups that were like, ooh, let’s watch it, crumble
Juli
And then like happy shiny people like that one.
Hannah (38:08.782)
We’re drawn, I mean, I don’t know, we, I’ll say me, I’ve been like drawn to like this out of being just interested in that. Is that feeding into this problem? Like am I?
Juli
I think we have to tread lightly. You know, I understand the heart behind investigative journalism and let’s look at this train wreck and what happened. And there are a lot of podcasts like that. There are lot of books like that. For me, the litmus test when people ask me about this stuff is take some time and ask yourself, did this draw me closer to Jesus Christ? Did this give me a greater love for Him?
That’s the end result of any ministry. I’m going to read another quote.
Hannah
Oh man, here she comes!
Juli
All right, listen to this. Another one that got me is by Spurgeon. Any doctrine that magnifies man, but not man’s Redeemer, any doctrine that denies the depth of the fall and consequently detracts from the greatness of salvation, any doctrine that makes man sinless and therefore makes Christ work less away with it, this will be an infallible test as to whether or not this is of the Holy Spirit, for Jesus says, he shall glorify me.”
Hannah
Wow.
Juli
And so, do I engage with some of that content? Yes, because I think it’s understanding our world and understanding the Christian world, there’s lessons to learn. But ultimately, does this glorify Christ? And so,
Hannah (39:45.218)
Maybe don’t be so quick to grab your popcorn and pop up your feet and be like, yeah, let’s watch.
Juli
I mean like watch it with the Holy Spirit and if it’s not glorifying Christ like why do we keep consuming it? And I think that’s important for people who are content creators too like we don’t want to ignore issues like we don’t want to ignore the harm of purity culture. I want to keep learning like how do we talk about sexuality in a way that’s helpful and healing but how do I do so in such a way that when you’re done with engaging with content, like you love God more deeply? You understand him more, you understand his heart, not that you walk away in a perpetual state of anger. I think some of the content that’s aimed at pointing out the flaws in the church, they never move us past the anger.
Hannah
No, you’re totally right. Man, but I can think of in the last couple of months, podcast episodes or sermons that I’ve listened to and sent to you or sent to others and be like, yo, you gotta watch this. Like after listening to this, I literally just wanted to go hide in my closet and spend time with God.
Juli
Yeah.
Hannah
Just because of this conversation I heard, like it literally drew me to.
Juli
And let me just say those conversations aren’t the ear candy. They’re not the, I want to listen to that one. You know like, it takes intentionality to seek that out and to stay with it.
Hannah (41:19.054)
I understand why at the beginning you said you were so passionate about this. It really does. It’s heartbreaking when you take a step back and look at the bride of Christ in division and tearing each other down, stiff arming one whole section. It’s hard.
Juli
It is hard. It’s, yeah, it’s, if I could recommend a resource, Francis Chan’s book, Until Unity. Like that book was really, really good. And it hits on this same theme. And I’m thankful that he was courageous enough to write something like that. I just, like, I really want to be known for promoting love in the body of Christ more than anything.
Hannah
Yeah
Juli (42:09.966)
And I don’t do that perfectly. I’m learning and learning and learning. But again, I look back at like 1 Corinthians 13 and Paul saying, even if you have the best doctrine, like even if God does miracles.
Hannah
That verse will get you.
Juli
Yeah, like if you have the best ministry, but you don’t have love.
Hannah (42:29.688)
Doesn’t matter.
Juli
Yeah, not only does it not matter, but you are annoying sound. Like you’re repulsive to the world. You’re not going to draw people to Christ.
Hannah (42:39.566)
That is a spicy Bible verse.
Juli
It is, but we put it on our wall and we’re like, isn’t that sweet? Like once it defines love, but what if in our conversations about this, we were patient and kind and joyful and loving and gentle and full of self-control, those fruits of the spirit. if, I mean, what if we didn’t keep a record of wrong? What if we didn’t seek our own way? What if we weren’t boastful and proud?
Hannah
Man, applying that verse into this conversation is good. Yeah. Wow.
Juli
Yep. So why don’t we just pray for that Hannah?
Hannah
I love it.
Juli
Lord God, we just start by confessing how much we have adopted the strategy of the world, how much in our own fear and our own pride we’ve just wanted to like carve out our own little corner of Christianity and defend it. And I pray Lord that you would give your body, your church, your Holy Spirit, deep, deep levels of your Holy Spirit that would give us the fruit of the Spirit, that would give us the patience and gentleness and kindness and humility that you call us to. We pray that you would teach us what it is to contend for the faith in a way that doesn’t engage as the world does, but Lord is drawing people to you. And this is a work that only you can do, God, it’s a supernatural work.
Juli (44:13.634)
And so, we pray that you would help us each to pursue what this looks like in our own personal relationships, in our behavior and engaging with culture, in our own church spaces, and Lord, in our own thinking. We just pray, God, for supernatural unity, that those who love you and who are your sons and daughters would truly be unified in Jesus’ name, amen.
Juli (44:42.03)
Well, thanks so much for taking the time to listen to this conversation because it gave me a chance to share a deep passion that God has put in my heart for this year and the one in front of us. I hope it’s encouraged you and challenged you to think biblically about what you disagree with other believers about and most importantly, how to disagree with them while pursuing unity. If you want to go deeper on this topic, I recommend you check out the book that I mentioned by Francis Chan, called Until Unity and that’s in our show notes. And please stop by authenticintimacy.com/give and help us reach our year end giving goals so that we can be in a strong position and hit the ground running in 2026. Well, that is it for this week and for this year. Thank you so much for listening and I look forward to having coffee with you again next year on Java with Juli.