Prefer to listen? Listen to the episode here.
There’s more to the masturbation conversation than simply “right” or “wrong.” Could it be an issue of spiritual maturity for some of us—whether we’re married or single? Can it be used in a healthy way in marriage? Join us to have your thinking challenged!
Juli (00:00.076)
Hey friend, before we jump in today, I just want to let you know that this is your last chance to join an online book study with us this winter. We still have some spots available in these groups for women, whether you’re married or single. We have a group for moms and we have a group for couples that will be going through God, and Your Marriage. Other groups will be going through books like Surrendered Sexuality, Finding the Hero in Your Husband, and a new updated version of Sex and the Single Girl that I’m currently working on.
So that’ll be fun for you to actually give me feedback as I’m rewriting. Each of these studies is going to include a weekly Zoom meeting with your trained volunteer leader, access to an online discussion group, and a live Q &A with me at the end of the study. So just go to authenticintimacy.com and look for our online book studies. And we’ll drop that in the show notes as well. OK, let’s head to the coffee shop for this week’s Java with Juli.
Juli
Welcome to Java with Juli. I am Juli Slattery and I’m so glad you joined me for today’s conversation. This podcast is an outreach of Authentic Intimacy, which is a ministry dedicated to helping you make sense of God and sexuality. And that is certainly what we’re going to be doing today. Today’s episode is one of those that might make you quickly turn down the volume and check and make sure no one else is in the room because we’re going to be talking about whether or not masturbation is okay.
Now, in over 15 years of speaking on sexuality, this is still one of the most popular questions I get. And I get it from people who are single, married, and widowed. In fact, I think we are the number one search result you get if you type that into your web browser. So apparently I’ve become known for addressing this topic. This is a question that we unfortunately usually tend to wrestle with in secret, which is not good.
Juli
Instead of giving you a simple yes or no answer, I actually want to invite you into a deeper discussion about the condition of your heart, about what it means to be spiritually mature and what it means to be discipled in your sexuality. Hannah Nitz is here to help me unpack all of this. as you’re listening, I’d really love to know what your thoughts are on what we say. You can get some feedback on Spotify.
Juli (02:23.318)
You can just leave a comment for us there. Or also on Apple Podcast, you can leave a rating and tell us your thoughts on Java with Juli in general or this episode in particular. So thanks in advance for giving us feedback and engaging with me in that way. Okay, so without further ado, we’re going to head to the coffee shop to talk about the topic of masturbation.
Juli
Hannah thanks for joining me for this very touchy subject today.
Hannah
Touchy, was that a play on words?
Juli
It was.
Hannah (02:55.342)
You know, Juli, I all the time say, Juli, if you need anything, I’m here. I could do a podcast. I can help you with anything. I don’t know if I should have clarified, like maybe not on masturbation, if I’m going to have a preference.
Juli
I’m really challenging our friendship with this one.
Hannah
Here I am, I know.
Juli
What a trooper.
Hannah
I’m just honored that somehow I get to sit at the table with you for this. You’re like, if I could have anyone on this.
Juli (03:17.454)
Who do I feel most comfortable with?
Hannah (03:24.244)
Let’s get Hannah at the table. Apparently you get the question a lot..
Juli
I do.
Hannah
Of if it’s okay to masturbate.
Juli
Yes.
Hannah
This is a frequent, frequent question you hear.
Juli
So in most of my speaking events, we do a live Q &A where people will text in. And I don’t think I’ve ever had an event where the question has not been asked.
Hannah
Kind of a weird thing isn’t it?
Juli
And usually it’s asked many, times. Yeah. I have a funny story about something that happened a few years ago. So it was during the pandemic and everybody’s home. Everybody’s working from home, going to school.
Hannah
At the beginning of COVID when it was like everyone was home, shutdown.
Juli
Yes, right. So we were all in our little corners of our house doing homework and things. So the printer is in my office and one of my sons was doing online school and had to print out an assignment that he needed right then for that particular class period. And so I’m on a live Zoom call and he’s like army crawling on the floor so that the zoom camera…
Hannah
To not be on camera.
Juli
Yes, to get to the printer to get his homework. And at that very moment, the person interviewing me asks me about masturbation. And my poor son is just, I can’t look back at him, but.
Hannah
He’s literally laying at your feet.
Juli
Right.
Hannah
Trying to get the paper off the printer.
Juli
This just couldn’t be more awkward. So he heard my answer whether he wanted to or not.
Hannah
Oh my goodness. Oh my word. Juli, that just feels like something that would happen on a sitcom or in a movie. You’d be like, that’s not real life.
Juli (04:57.93)
It was real life. My poor kids are so scarred.
Hannah
That is truly, that is one for the record books right there. I can just picture the army crawl, the hands sneaking up to get it off the printer.
Juli
Oh my goodness, yeah, poor kid.
Hannah
They’re doing all right.
Juli
Yeah, they are.
Hannah
So you really do get this question all the time. do. Live events, on Zoom webinars. Yeah,
Juli (05:22.894)
We have answered it at least 50 or 60 times. Wow. I’ve written blogs about it. We thought, hey, we’ve never really done a Java on the topic. So here we go.
Hannah
Let’s go baby. Masturbation. All right, give us the answer. Yes or no.
Juli
What’s the question?
Hannah
Is it okay?
Juli
Is it okay? Well, that’s a complicated question.
Hannah
This can be a short episode, so just give us a yes or no, we’ll wrap it up.
Juli
You know, people want a yes or no, but we’re gonna spend a whole episode on it because…
Hannah
It’s complicated.
Juli
Yeah. The Bible never mentions it.
Hannah (05:52.81)
It’s not in the Bible.
Juli
No, it’s not.
Hannah
Cannot find the word.
Juli
No, you cannot. Now you can find one episode that seems to be related to masturbation.
Hannah
Interesting.
Juli
In the Old Testament.
Hannah
Okay. Tell me more.
Juli
And it’s the story of a guy named Onan.
Hannah (06:08.302)
Poor Onan.
Juli
I know. That is, I’ve never met somebody who named their kid Onan.
Hannah
For good reason.
Juli
Yes. So Onan’s brother died. And by the custom and the law of that day, he had to marry his brother’s wife, which is weird. And the reason that he would have to marry his brother’s wife and actually impregnate her is so that the older brother’s name and heritage can live on. So Onan marries the wife, but it says every time he had sex with his new wife, he would spill his seed.
Hannah
Interesting.
Juli
Yeah. So that…
Hannah (06:48.674)
Which is another phrase we are allowed to use for masturbating, is that true?
Juli
I don’t know. I don’t think women really spill seed, but yeah. So hang in there with us, we’ll get there. But so Onan is punished by God and actually dies because he will not carry on his brother’s heritage. But a lot of people will call masturbation the sin of Onan with the implication of God may kill you. But that’s actually not what the story’s about.
Hannah
That’s an intense story.
Juli
It is.
Hannah
So now we know it’s in the Bible in one spot that feels a little weird.
Juli (07:26.016)
Yeah, but it’s not really about masturbation.
Hannah
The bigger picture going on there.
Juli
Yeah, but just to clarify, in case you’ve heard of the sin of Onan. your mind. Yeah. So we have answered this question, I think, in a few other interviews. I think I talked to Doug Rosenau about it, but we’re going to dive more deeply into a theology of masturbation.
Hannah
Dun, dun dun.
Juli
I don’t think I’ve ever said that phrase before.
Hannah (07:52.686)
Okay, so then let’s do it. So I feel like this is talked about always in this negative sexual sin way. would you say as we’re getting into this conversation, I mean, do you think of masturbation kind of in the same category as like viewing porn, sexual fantasy, like this is clearly a sin?
Juli
It’s often used in the same context as those things. We might say like people that struggle with porn and masturbation, like we say that together. But I think it is different because first of all, the Bible doesn’t speak to it. And we see that the scripture talks so intricately and not at all shyly about defining what sexual immorality is. And so the Bible does spell out things that are sexually sinful and it doesn’t say masturbation, which we have to say that, well, that’s curious. Did they struggle with this back in biblical times?
Hannah
Is this new?
Juli
I’m pretty sure they had figured it out back then.
Hannah
Word had spread.
Juli
Yeah. So why did God not specifically address it? And when we talk about pornography or fantasy, the Bible does specifically address that.
Juli (09:07.562)
And Jesus says that it’s not just what you do with your body that matters, but what you do with your mind. And on the Sermon on the Mount, he said, if you look at a woman lustfully, it’s like you’ve committed adultery with her in her heart. And that’s not just for men. He’s essentially saying that where you go with your mind sexually is really important because it is the overflow of your heart. Am I thinking lustfully? Is sex all about consuming? Am I sexually objectifying people?
And so with pornography and with fantasy, the fantasy that would involve somebody you’re not married to, that is lusting. And the Bible is really clear about that. So, the two are different things.
Hannah
Interesting. So Juli, as I’ve heard you talk about this, write about this topic, as you kind of walk through it, you’ve talked through these different things that we do consider them. If it’s not just yes or no, if it’s not this clearly sexual sin in the Bible, how do we start to figure out what we do with this? And I’ve heard you talk about it being more a cute phrase of the thought that counts.
Like how you’re describing this verse from the Sermon on the Mount of our heart, our mind on the topic. So how do we start to think about that with masturbation?
Juli
Yeah, well, I think first of all, like just even giving some context of how I’ve wrestled through this topic, meeting so many people, primarily women that would come up and talk to me and talk about the shame that’s associated with masturbation for them. They haven’t looked at porn, they haven’t slept around, but this is something they struggle with. And they just say, it’s just an unbearable shame. I’ve never told anybody, I can’t stop.
Juli (10:56.6)
And so, that’s a context I often hear about it in, or even Christians giving the advice to masturbate before you go on a date so that there’s no sexual tension there. I don’t know if you heard that growing up.
Hannah
I don’t believe this. This is the advice that’s given.
Juli
Some people give this advice out, yes.
Hannah
What a weird world.
Juli
It is a weird world. But then also I think even in a more sober setting, people that have been sexually traumatized, particularly as children, their sexuality was awakened so young and it’s a way that they learn to soothe, to even just deal with some of the biological, neurological patterns that can come from early exposure to sexual things.
And so if you have somebody who’s struggling with this and experiencing so much shame and it might be even tied to past trauma, just to say, stop it, it’s a sin, it’s terrible, God hates it. For most people is going to just put more shame on it and actually make the struggle even more difficult. That’s why I think we need a very nuanced understanding of how we address masturbation instead of just saying.
Hannah
Yeah, that’s interesting. Just realizing there’s so many more layers connected to this than just a surface, yes, no.
Juli (12:12.204)
Right. Yeah. So there are a lot of things related to our heart. Like you mentioned, Hannah, this is really going back to what a heart issue. That’s what God cares about. Our behaviors come from our heart. And so a couple of things that I think are key is first of all, what is going on in your mind? And we already kind of spoke to this, but often masturbation is paired with fantasy or with pornography or images of pornography that you’ve seen. And when that’s the case, then we’re clearly operating outside of God’s design because we are being sexually aroused by somebody else, either real or imaginary. And again, God is very clear about that, that that’s not something that he wants us to engage in.
Hannah
So that in a way makes the answer clear when you’re seeing it paired with these other areas of sin.
Juli
Right.
Hannah
Okay.
Juli
Yeah. there are some people, I think particularly women, but also some men who would say, for me, this is a physical release and it’s not paired with any sort of imagery. It’s just a physical tension that builds up. For women, it can be related to their cycle. For men, it can just be a buildup of sperm where they’re like, I just need a physical release. And some people would say that there’s nothing wrong with that, particularly if it’s not paired with any sort of fantasy or sexual image. Like scripturally, is there anything wrong with that? And I don’t see scripturally where there is something wrong with it. Even both men and women have sexual dreams, nocturnal emission. That happens to women too. We often don’t talk about it. We just talk about it for guys.
Juli (14:06.114)
But…there is this sort of natural release that can happen and we are sexual people. And so when it’s that sort of situation, I think we need to go beyond asking the question, is this right or wrong? And really asking the question, how do I grow in my understanding or stewardship of how I really look at sexuality? So one way I put that is that I think for some people, masturbation is less an issue of morality, in other words, is it right or wrong, and more of an issue of maturity.
Hannah
Interesting.
Juli
Yeah
Hannah
So why the word maturity?
Juli
Well, because let’s take for example, comparing a 14 or 15 year old kid who has been exposed to pornography or been exposed to sexual trauma, or even just your normal 14 or 15 year old kid. Compare that to a 35 year old man or woman who’s been walking with the Lord for a long time. Are the expectations of how we steward our sexual drives and desires different? What would you say?
Hannah
I would hope so.
Juli (15:15.502)
You’re a mom now. You’re gonna have to deal with these things.
Hannah
No, never. I’m never gonna have to deal with this with my kids. I’m no.
Juli
You got some time. Yeah.
Hannah
I’m gonna stay these cute little three year olds forever.
Juli
No, it’s not gonna happen that way. When an adolescent awakens sexually and they’re confused by this and if we just tell them, you know, don’t do that, stop doing that, don’t masturbate, they’re so confused. You know, they’re just trying to figure out who they are. What do you do with these desires? They don’t understand the fullness of what intimacy is and what God designed sex to be, even if they heard about it from a book or Sunday school or from their parent. They can’t quite make those connections.
Hannah (15:57.9)
Yeah, it definitely just becomes in this example, you’re giving just this rule, like this thing I’m following without necessarily, or should follow without these deeper connections behind it.
Juli
And even the way their brains are wired, they don’t have fully developed frontal lobes to even think through their desires and their impulse control. And generally they don’t have a deep relationship with God to understand the work of the Holy Spirit in their life. And they also don’t have the framework of, if God has given me all this sexual desire, part of the way I steward that is to pursue a covenant relationship, pursue marriage.
So if you’ve got a 35 year old, now you have somebody who has more physical maturity, more mental maturity, more self-control, more time to have developed a relationship with God, more of the ability to understand his purpose for sexuality, more of an avenue to even address wounds that might be feeding into that sexual desire and drive, and the opportunity to pursue relationship where they’re working towards emotional intimacy, and potentially working towards marriage.
Hannah
Different picture from the 14, 15 year old.
Juli
Yeah. So I feel like when we just put down rules and God wants you to do this or not do that, could it be that masturbation isn’t the best thing, but maybe at times it could be a good thing for an immature person who’s struggling with some of these desires and not sure what to do with them and doesn’t want to walk in sin.
Hannah (17:37.922)
Hmm. That is a question I’ve never considered or heard asked. You’re right. mean, when you start walking through these other questions connected to it, instead of just this yes, no, I understand why as you get this question, you say it’s not just yes and no. There’s all of these other pieces to consider.
Juli
Yeah.
Hannah
So then are you saying if you’re 14 and 15, you’re good?
Juli
Well, I’m saying if you’re 14 or 15, not just you’re good, but how is that young person growing in maturity? And how are we as people that are parenting or discipling, giving a bigger vision for what it is to be controlled by the Holy Spirit and what it is to understand where sexual desire comes from and how it’s twisted by the world and understand God’s view of His creation calling us to intimacy. And so it’s not just, you’re good, that’s fine, but it’s, okay, that’s where you are, but how do we begin to grow even more?
Hannah
Which is beautiful, Juli, when we think about so many conversations you’ve helped us have around sexual discipleship. Like this idea of taking this call and invitation of discipleship and applying it to sexuality, applying it within our families, within parenting. And what an example this is. Yeah. Because it’s, mean, is this true? Yes. It’s easier to just say yes or no. It’s easier to say, hey kid, we don’t do that. And maybe awkward. mean, my son’s only three, but I can only imagine to kind of really walk out some of these questions you’re having.
Juli
Yeah.
Hannah
And helping wrestle with it.
Juli (19:29.856)
Or you could just have them observe a Zoom call.
Hannah
Watch this video, my cousin. Talk to your dad.
Juli
I think even asking the question, let’s say somebody is really wrestling with shame or masturbation, where does that shame come from? Why do you feel ashamed? And for some people the answer is because I feel ashamed of being sexual. I feel ashamed of having desires. And so getting to the root of that, or even is this…
This is tied into a memory of trauma or being exposed to sexual things at a very young age. And so what God wants to do is move into those places of wounding and really give us a fuller understanding of why we’re sexual and how to steward our sexuality rather than just saying no to these behaviors without thinking them through.
Hannah
Yes, this like discipline. I think sometimes that’s the word you think of like this behavior modification, or if I just had more discipline in this area, as opposed to what you’re describing, this like fully engaging gut in this area.
Juli (20:40.34)
And you know, sexual discipleship does require some discipline, any form of discipleship does. So there may be times where you learn, okay, this is where I used to go whenever I’d feel lonely or anxious, I’d look for the sexual release, but I’m going to be disciplined enough to choose something that’s better to comfort me and learn, what I also really like doing is I really like having a cup of tea and listening to music, or I like talking to a friend, or I like going for a run. There are other ways to get those comforting hormones that come with a sexual release. And so the discipline of learning, yes, I need comfort, yes, I need a release, but there are more mature ways for me to pursue that.
Hannah
So Juli, you’re talking about this example and saying, okay, this 14, 15 year old versus this 35 year old and how that looks different in maturity, it looks different possibly relationally. Does this conversation change within marriage? Like if we’re talking specifically about someone who is married, I don’t know, versus not. Like, does that add any pieces to this thought?
Juli (21:52.64)
Sure it does. The other things we’ve talked about are part of this, but I think masturbation is used differently in marriage and it can be used well and it can be used poorly. So the way it is used poorly is my spouse won’t meet my sexual needs and so I’m gonna go meet them for myself. Or man, just connecting sexually is too difficult. I can’t understand my spouse. We just argue about this and so it’s easier for me just to revert back to masturbation and fantasy or pornography and I hear this often from young married couples where they’re trying to work out their sexuality, but there’s so much conflict. There’s so much difference in desire that they just say we’ll just take care of our own needs That is I would say a sinful way of using masturbation because God has given you the gift of sex to work towards what is it to love this person with my body? What does it look like for us to celebrate our covenant together physically? But instead of doing that hard work, you’re saying, you know what, it’s just easier for me to think about what I need and to get a release myself. So that’s where I think masturbation becomes destructive within marriage.
Hannah
Which yeah, when you think about it in this bigger picture, instead of the hard and the fighting for it in relationship, which is always going to be more difficult, versus this individual interaction when it comes to sexuality. That’s a big difference.
Juli
And part of realizing that self-denial is always going to be a part of stewarding your sexuality as a Christ follower. That is true of singles and it also true of a married person. That God doesn’t say, now that you’re married, you get everything you want sexually. No, we still steward our sexual drives and desires for the purpose of glorifying God through our marriage and blessing one another.
Juli (24:02.304)
And so, for me to look at masturbation as a way to quote unquote give my needs met, that is really contrary to the spirit of why God gave us the gift of sex.
Hannah
And Juli isn’t so much about living in God’s kingdom and his rule and his love radically different from the way that you just naturally think.
Juli
Yeah, it is.
Hannah
Even as you’re describing that, like if I were to take a true or false test, like, you know, there is self-denial or what word did you use?
Juli
Self-denial.
Hannah
Okay, self-denial within sexuality in marriage. I think I, I think I would have said true.
Hannah (24:42.371)
But even as you’re describing it, I just think, man, that goes against absolutely everything that culture tells me.
Juli
Yeah, and it goes against the way I feel like sometimes in the church we just slap a scripture verse on the cultural belief.
Hannah
So what do you mean by that?
Juli
Like a lot of people go into marriage, a Christian marriage, thinking this is God’s way of me getting whatever…
Hannah
“I’m about to get it on all the time”.
Juli
Right there you go
Hannah
You just think it’s gonna be like,
Juli (25:16.418)
You got the song.
Hannah
Yeah, this is what it’s gonna be now. I used to have self-denial, but bring it on, baby.
Juli (25:21.91)
Now that I’m married, no self-denial. God just wants me to…
Hannah
And you understand why this question of masturbation comes up so often. Especially when we go in with this desire to please God and to like thrive within our marriage sexually. And when that’s not happening, because it is difficult,
Juli
Right. Mm-hmm.
Hannah
here we go. Yeah. Wow.
Juli
Okay, so let’s talk about how masturbation could actually be a good thing in marriage.
Hannah
I’m very interested in this. Tell me all about this.
Juli
Well, I can think of a couple scenarios. First would be couples that can’t be together physically. So maybe you have somebody deployed and they’re away from their spouse for months and months and months and months. And they say, you know what, we want to focus on each other. We together decide and agree that this is something that we’ll do together or separate thinking about each other. And that’s a way of, again, focusing on one another. Some couples will say, yeah, that’s actually something that’s really good for our marriage. Other couples will say, no, we don’t feel like we have the freedom to do that. And that’s okay. You have to ask God to give you the wisdom for your marriage. But that would be a situation where I’d say, okay, that could actually be beneficial to a couple.
Juli
Another way would be, let’s say one of you has an illness where you can’t have intercourse. And so you’re physically present, but you’re not able to be fully engaging in sexual intercourse together. So you might say, hey, this is a way we can share sexually without having intercourse. So you might call that outercourse,
Hannah
There’s a new word for people.
Juli
There you go. But it’s a couple that’s saying for emotional reasons or physical reason, intercourse is impossible, but we want to be sexual with one another.
Juli (27:25.556)
So another thing might be, even just for a woman to become aroused and to learn how she responds sexually, she might touch herself during sex so that she can become aroused. So some women feel really bad about that. They feel like this isn’t the perfect
Hannah
Yeah, I shouldn’t be involved in this piece.
Juli
But there’s nothing in scripture that says that’s wrong.
Hannah
Man, Juli, as you’re describing these areas, it makes me understand so much more of why this is such an important question to walk through instead of how you said at the very beginning, how oftentimes we just say, nope, and just put shame on it when there’s, especially these examples you’re giving, like areas we want to be able to talk about this.
Juli
Yeah, and these are real life questions that people are asking. And I know that because they ask me.
Hannah (28:14.126)
Because you get the question! Trust me, I’ve read them all.
Juli
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, there’s research, this goes back to kind of the singleness question. There’s research that shows that particularly for women, if you masturbate, it actually will create more desire sexually. So there’s sort of a myth that this will take care of my sexual desire. Actually, it might make it more difficult to steward. So just something to keep in mind.
Hannah
I’ve never heard that.
Juli
The other thing that we can see through research is that women that will masturbate a lot will have more difficulty responding to their partner when they actually engage in sex. And so that’s another just kind of, hey, use this wisely, consider it. And it can impact how you respond to intimacy with your spouse one day.
Juli
Yeah, what do you think about all that Hannah?
Hannah
I know, I’m just sitting here thinking about it all. It’s just this interesting thought, Juli, of these areas where, as you’ve talked about so many times, of our view of God impacting our view of sexuality, I’m just sitting here thinking, man, this is where these kind of conversations get so hard when we are not sure how to engage God in things that are not just straightforward, spiritual things. know? I think for many people thinking about praying and even involving the word masturbation could be a new thought. You know?
Juli
Yeah, praying for wisdom you know, I’ve had a couple people email me and ask me if they’re widows or widowers. Like, is it okay for me to masturbate thinking about my deceased spouse?
Hannah (30:09.646)
There’s a lot of levels here.
Juli
Yeah, it’s just, this is real life, Hannah, and people are navigating, where’s God in the midst of this? Where’s His truth? And I think it’s really easy to either always say no and you’re kind of slapping this legalism or shame on people that doesn’t necessarily need to be there or to always say yes, and you’re giving license to something that could become sinful and destructive in their lives. And so we really need God’s wisdom and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Juli (30:45.688)
Some of our questions are not black and white, and those kinds of questions usually can’t be answered quickly, but they need to be answered thoughtfully and prayerfully. You God cares about our behavior, but he also cares about our hearts. He cares about our healing and our growth and spiritual maturity. Wherever this conversation finds you, my hope is that it moves you away from shame and closer to seeking wisdom as you trust the Holy Spirit to help you steward your sexuality in a way that honors God and brings you freedom. I’ve linked to a number of follow-up resources in the show notes, including a few blogs that I wrote on this question, as well as some Q&A videos. And stop by authenticintimacy.com/onlinebookstudies to grab one of those last spots for our winter groups. Hey, thanks for listening and I look forward to having coffee with you next time for more Java with Juli.