Prefer to listen? Listen to the episode here.
Juli unpacks four of the most common (and subtle) lies we believe about sex, desire, and compatibility. From “sex is about expressing myself” to “the best sex is compatible sex,” they explore how these ideas shape our relationships—and how God invites you into something deeper.
If you’ve ever felt stuck, confused, or distant from God because of sexuality, pull up a chair—this conversation is for you.
Juli (00:00.149)
Well, hey friend, welcome to another episode of Java with Juli. I am your host, Juli Slattery, and this podcast is a production of Authentic Intimacy, which is a ministry dedicated to helping people make sense of God and sexuality. And today I am here having coffee with two good friends, Hannah Nitz and Joe Caruso. So guys, thanks so much for joining me for this conversation.
Hannah
Thanks Juli
Joe
Yeah, thank you very much. Glad to be here.
Juli
Now, Joe, you are a pastor at Grace Church here in Ohio, and you are also on the board of directors of Authentic Intimacy. So in some ways that kind of makes you my boss.
Joe (00:39.054)
Like 1 12th of your boss
Juli
There you go. Yeah, that’s kind of true. Yeah. So you have a lot of oversight on the ministry as a board member, but you also joined me last summer for some of episodes we did on the series around surrendered sexuality. So you are no stranger now to Java with Juli. People are getting used to your voice.
Joe (00:57.486)
It was interesting having people walk up to me says my gosh, you were on Juli’s podcast and I’m like, my gosh, there are people that listen to this. I mean, I there are people listen to this but no one’s ever talked to me about your podcast before. It was interesting.
Juli
That’s kind of funny. Yeah, so now you’re making new friends.
Hannah
It’s not always the best feeling though, be honest Joe. Sometimes you’re like, wait a second. I was alking about.
Joe
Depends on where the conversation goes.
Juli
You’re like, your mind goes, what did I share?
Hannah (01:23.544)
Yeah. Juli does this mean thing where you sit in a basement and you think, you know, we’re just talking on the microphone. You think it’s just you two. And then all of a sudden, thousands of people are like, I listened to that episode on masturbation. What?!
Juli
Hey, I have sympathy, that’s my life all the time. So you knew what you’re signing up for. You both are very courageous and brave.
Hannah
You don’t really have sympathy. This is my every day.
Joe
This podcast is, about it’s about what?
Hannah (01:53.878)
My seven-year-old did ask if he could come with me today because he has a snow day. was like, you know what? Today’s not the day, buddy.
Joe
I just took my daughter to a funeral with me. Somehow that was better than…
Juli
Oh wow, we’d rather talk about death and sex. Hey, I get it, but they grow up and then they’re like, hey, I get it. I get why you do what you do. All right, well today we are diving into a topic that I think is so essential. We’re gonna be covering some lies that people believe about sex and sexuality. So I would say if we were to make a list of lies that people believe about sex and sexuality, we’d probably be here until 2027, but we’re just gonna hit a few of them. Some of most common ones.
Hannah
Yeah. So, you know, we kind of joked about this, Juli, at the start of like Joe and I being like, yeah, it’s so weird when someone’s heard us on the podcast. This is, as you said, you’re like all day, everyday job. Do you get excited to have these conversations each week?
Juli (03:00.174)
Yeah, do I get excited about having these conversations? Usually not so much on the front end, because it’s prayer, it’s preparation, it’s kind of like, all right, these are hard conversations. I think I feel that same way, like when I get the opportunity to speak, you know it’s like you’re treading on ground that’s very sensitive for people, and it’s spiritual ground. I think a verse that has become very significant to me over the past several years is in 2 Corinthians 10.
Paul wrote, “For though we live in the flesh, we do not wage war according to the flesh. The weapons of our warfare are not the weapons of the world. Instead, they have divine power to demolish strongholds”. And when I meditate on that verse, what Paul is really saying is that if we could see the spiritual terrain, we would see that the enemy, the forces of evil, build walls of lies, of beliefs that keep us from knowing God and knowing God intimately. And I’ve just come to know over the last 13 or more years of this ministry that most of us have walls between us and God related to sexuality. And so what we get to do at Authentic Intimacy is we get to expose those strongholds and tear them down when we talk about truth, which the end result is we become more intimate with God. We know Him more deeply and we experience that abiding and that fellowship with Him that the wall kept us from.
Hannah
Yeah. So a little rebrand, it’s like we’re in like the spiritual, you know, battle tearing down some walls, there you are, lighten up some swords. Yeah, that sounds fun. Let’s do it, baby.
Joe (04:42.862)
I wondering if that was the end of the podcast, we’re reading that passage. Like I’m like, yeah, that’s it.
Hannah
Okay, well then let’s get started on that, Juli. So if we bring up, let’s just say some of the most common lies that you hear or that you subtly see people believing as they’re interacting with Authentic Intimacy, as they’re asking questions, as they’re coming to you or your books for help. I think one of the things you see a lot is about expression and like expressing yourself. So someone might be like, sex is about expressing me. My sexuality is an expression of myself. So let’s hit that one first.
Juli
Sure, Hannah, I think that’s one of the most subtle lies that has infiltrated our culture and our Christian culture.
Hannah
Yeah, so subtle it almost doesn’t sound. You’re like, wait, think is that a life
Juli (05:31.532)
Yeah. And I don’t think anybody just says those words. Well, sex is about expressing me. But the way we talk about sex, the way we think about it, whether you’re single or married, you are using the framework that says sex is about expressing who I’m attracted to, the romantic attachment that I feel, the chemistry that we have, how close I feel to this person.
Like you’ll hear singles say, well, I really love him or her. Like, what’s wrong with me being with my boyfriend or my girlfriend when we love each other? We’re not hurting anyone. I mean, the purpose of sex is to express that kind of love. Or even in marriage, you will hear people say, well, we’ve lost chemistry, we’ve fallen out of love, I’m not attracted to my spouse anymore. And sort of the unspoken part of that is, so we don’t have sex, because sex is about responding to attraction and responding to romantic feeling or chemistry. So I don’t know if you guys see that lie all over the place, but I certainly do.
Joe
Yeah, I do all the time. I feel like when you have couples that will ask for what I call the surprise visit because couples that start to say those types of things generally haven’t been meeting with anybody for the months or years prior. It is all of a sudden find themselves at desperation or a complete Like platonic rhythms. Yeah, and then they’re like, oh should we fix this?
Hannah
Oh, so the surprise visit is when they surprise visit you.
Joe (07:07.384)
Like, oh your marriage is not healthy.
Juli
Yeah, we thought everything was good.
Hannah
I was expecting a better, that’s such a happy word surprise. You mean it like, here we go.
Joe
Most surprises in my world are not good.
Hannah
I understand.
Joe
Yeah, so like, because it’s either something like this where it’s just been in the background and you keep it private. Maybe that’s even another lie someday that like you should never talk to anybody about your sexuality because I feel like a lot of people think it’s private unless they’re just expressing that it’s supposed to express themselves. But yeah, like so it’s not too late, don’t get me wrong, but it feels like why did you wait this long to have a conversation? And I think a lot of that’s buried in shame. Like who am I supposed to tell that my wife’s not attractive anymore?
Joe (07:48.4)
And for the record, that was hypothetical. My wife’s awesome. But like, you who am I supposed to go and say, I haven’t had sex in months or in years, and that’s not supposed to just wash over as shame because the culture says I should be having sex all the time with whomever I want, however I want, whatever. Here I am in a married relationship, it’s supposed to be honoring God and I’m not having any. I don’t wanna tell anybody that. And so yeah, you get stuck and then you get desperate and that’s when it usually comes across my desk.
Juli
And I would say my guess would be in 50 % of those surprise visits, there’s somebody else, whether it’s a full affair or it’s I’m being drawn emotionally to someone else. And often that’s the crisis point as well is not only am I not attracted to my spouse, I feel more attracted to somebody else.
Hannah
Even the thought of something else. You know, as you’re going back to the slide, like I’m supposed to be expressing myself. I am all of sudden feeling more attracted to even this other idea outside of my marriage.
Juli
Right. And so now it’s like as a Christian a real crossroads like do I follow my heart or do I do what is quote unquote right? But that lie that good sex is about following your heart and doing what you feel is so predominant that it really has a stronghold in many of our lives.
Hannah (09:10.574)
Okay, so then what do we battle that one against? Like what is the truth in that situation if it’s not this expression?
Juli
Okay, well, this is so countercultural, but sex is not expressing what’s inside of you. It’s not about expressing romantic love. It’s about celebrating covenant love. And so it doesn’t matter how attracted you might feel to somebody that you’re not married to. If you’re not in covenant with them, then sex has no place in that relationship. And the flip side of that is, if you are in covenant, if you are married, it doesn’t matter how you fall out of love or you’re aging or you’re not attracted to each other anymore, you work on sex because you are in covenant. And so God has given a married couple this regular way of remembering with their bodies that yes, we have given ourselves to one another. And so just like we wake up every day and do that with our heart, our soul, our money, our decisions, we need to be reminded to do that with our bodies. So again, that is so countercultural that even those of you who listen to Java with Juli all the time and have heard this kind of talk often, it’s probably even catching you off guard again of, yeah, that’s right. It’s not about just how I feel.
Hannah
Can you remind us about the word covenant?
Juli (10:37.826)
Yeah, so covenant is a unique relationship. It is based on a promise. It’s not based on a feeling. It’s not even based on an agreement. And so a contract is more of an agreement based relationship where it’s like, okay, I’ll do this for you. You do this for me. And as long as you keep up your end of the bargain, I’ll keep up my end of the bargain.
Well, God created marriage to be something very different, a covenant, which is reflective of the kind of love that He has for us, which is a promise of future love, not a declaration of present love. It is, I’m looking into the future and promising that I will be faithful with my character to this vow that I’m making to you.
Joe
Yeah, Ephesians I love how it just couples the idea of marriage with what God is doing with us. And so this whole mystery of the covenant love that God is granting to the people that choose to follow him is exactly what a marriage is supposed to emulate. So I hate, I hate, I hate, it’s like what you’re saying, Juli, when people say marriage is a 50-50 relationship. I want to like lovingly slap them a little bit. It’s like, no, no, it’s not. You will ruin yourselves if it’s a 50-50 relationship. It’s 100-0.
I’m signing up to give all of myself to you. That’s marriage. Done. Not if not as long as not Please meet my needs. It’s I’m giving myself to you. That’s what all those vows mean if it was 50-50 It’s for better for richer, like it’s not for poor for worse or in sickness And so the vow is saying I will walk with you it emulates even Romans 8 where he says there’s nothing that’s gonna separate you from my love.
And so it’s not like if you don’t stay in shape, I don’t love you anymore. If you don’t meet my needs this many times a week, I don’t love you anymore. If you don’t do things around the house or raise my kids or blah, blah, blah, blah, then I don’t love you anymore. That’s bull crap. It has to be locked into this covenant idea of love and then sex begins to express all of that. And when we can have that type of relationship where I’m not trying to hide my imperfections with my wife and I’m not trying to pretend as if everything is perfect and some of you don’t know me, I don’t have to put a toupee, or a hair piece and pretend like I still have all of my hair.
Hannah
He’s bald, spoiler, spoiler.
Joe
Like it’s okay, you know? And I remember like, this is weird, but like I remember early on when I was finally realizing that I was losing my hair, there was a couple of times when like Mandy would like rub my head and I would like pull back. Like don’t touch me. And it just even like sitting on the couch or in the kitchen, I’m like, I don’t. And then after a while I’m like, she doesn’t care. And I don’t have to hide my very normal and natural aging from my wife. But if it’s all about some type of performance or expression or it’s going to be ugly if we do that.
Hannah
So I love that example from Joe of more of that practically. How does that actually change this whole conversation? Like how does it change how we date or how we have sex or how we like think about that relationship? Cause I don’t want it to just be this theoretical thing, you know, where you’re like writing the word covenant down. This is somehow supposed to connect with my sexuality.
Juli
Yeah, I mean, as simple as a Christian marriage, again, is the giving of yourself to one another in faithfulness. And so if you are not married, the goal of dating should not be, I get to explore my sexuality. I get to have all the feels. I mean, that’s part of dating, but we put so much emphasis on that as if it’s this great exploration of self, and who’s the perfect person for me and how do I experiment with my sexuality and how do we get a running start, and try sex out. It’s just, there’s no place for that. And that’s where in Song of Solomon it keeps repeating, don’t awaken love before it is time. Like God has given you sexual desire, he’s given you the capacity to enjoy sex, but it is for covenant.
And then on the flip side of that, have a lot of married listeners who need to be reminded to pursue sex and marriage, not because you feel like it or you feel in love with your spouse, but because you are married and you are in covenant. And it takes effort over the years to nourish your sexual relationship. It takes effort to stay attracted to each other. It takes effort to enjoy sex and work through the conflicts and the doldrums and the exhaustion and the risks that happen in your relationship. But it is a beautiful God-honoring thing when you do that. So that’s the practical of it.
Hannah
Yeah. So I think that could roll into even another question, a follow up, maybe even a lie. You’re talking to a married couple who are struggling with that and saying, you know, some of these things you hear all the time of like, I don’t know. We just don’t have the same desire and just isn’t lining up for us in a lot of ways. You know, people kind of have this idea of like, if we were more compatible sexually, it would be better. You know, I feel like we hear you hear that sediment a lot of different ways.
But I’ve seen you Juli write this on a list of lies. So what do we do with that? As far as someone responding with, yeah, but we’re incompatible sexually. And wouldn’t it be better if I was more compatible with my partner, with my spouse?
Juli
Yeah, so the lie is that great sex or the best sex is compatible sex, which this is kind of a paradigm shift. The best sex is not an activity that you enjoy in the moment. It’s the journey of intimacy. It’s the journey of unveiling with each other, where it’s like it’s not just about your body. It’s about growing together, maturing together, learning to love together, learning to enjoy together. And there will always be elements of incompatibility in marriage.
Hannah
Forever, is that what you said?
Juli
Yeah, there will always be because you keep changing. And I’m sure you’ve heard this, Joe, in marital counseling, but even people that will sleep together before they get married, they’ll be like, my goodness, like we were so compatible when we were dating. And then we got married and it was like, my wife’s sex drive just went out the window. She never wants to have sex anymore. Or maybe it’s the opposite where it’s like, when we were dating, we couldn’t keep our hands off each other and then we got married and then my husband, realized like, he does not have a lot of sexual desire. And now all of a sudden we’re very incompatible and we got married with the assumption that this is gonna be this great thing.
Hannah
Yeah, we were compatible then.
Juli
Right? And then you go through things like infertility or pregnancy, health changes, know, eventually aging, menopause, all of it. And if you’re believing that the best sex is when your bodies are responding at the same time and you have the same compatible desire, then you don’t know what to do when those things hit you.
Joe
Yeah, I think that, it’s just a lie of the enemy to think that because you’ve experienced some type of sexual moment that that’s going to be the rest of your life. mean, it’s just the Turkish delight of the Chronicles of Narnia all over again. It’s just like, this is great, right? It’ll be just like this every time. And it’s just not. Those highs, those lows, but that kind of bleeds back into our last question of it just, no, this is meant to be about covenant. I will walk with you through those highs and those lows.
I mean, if it wouldn’t be so awkward, we should report healthier in sickness in the vows. Like when it’s hot and heavy or it’s awkward, like I will still love you through this.
Juli
That’s a good idea.
Hannah (18:17.378)
Hey, Joe Pastor you marry people you can start adding that to people’s
Joe
I love surprising people with little anecdotes anyway. I have one coming up in March.
Juli
This is challenge. I can’t wait. You’re gonna have to let us know how did that go.
Joe
I’m just going to look at the parents as I say it.
Juli
And they’ll probably nod their head like, yep, we’ve been there, done that.
Joe (18:37.228)
But in truth, like that is what those vows mean. And for some reason we tend to throw that out the window when it comes to sex, because if suddenly we go through those low times in marriage, we start to wonder, is this working out? And then certainly in dating, like I just wonder how many times people have passed on someone that could have been an amazing spouse for them, but because they had an awkward moment dating, they gave up on each other. And ironically, as far as God’s concerned, he was like, you weren’t supposed to work on that yet anyway. And then you gave up on each other and you were supposed to be a gift that I had for you. But okay, let’s shift the wheel again.
Juli
And this is bringing up a controversial topic, but I’ll do it because that’s what we do on this podcast. Even for people who are same-sex attracted, you know, to have the belief that my only option is being single because I’ll never find someone that I feel that compatibility with or that extreme sexual chemistry with. That’s the thinking of our culture. That’s these two lies mixed together with saying, you know, sex is all about expressing who I want to be with, and if we can’t be sexually compatible, then we should never get married. And that is not the biblical foundation of how we’re meant to think about marriage or sex. That there are going to be seasons of life, sometimes long seasons, where you really have to work on being attracted to each other, being compatible.
You have to work on, okay, how do we forge a journey of sexual intimacy together when we have differences and we have things to work through like this? And so that’s something that, again, really can drive me crazy when I hear people say that because it’s such an assumption that comes from our culture instead of from a biblical framework of the purpose of our sexuality.
Joe (20:25.287)
Is there something to this that messes with our future like brain chemistry because this is where I’m about to be like professionally corrected if I’m wrong, but I’ve been working with couples now for a long time and one of the things I will often say is the more comfortable you are in expressing yourself sexually with your dating partner and or your fiance or even in this case like the more that you’re willing to see if you’re compatible sexually before you get married the more that you’re pre-wiring your brain that seven, 10, 20 years from now when suddenly you find yourself a little bit distant from your spouse but you’re feeling very connected to that person at work or that coffee person that you see at the cafe or whatever, like suddenly you’re like, wait a minute, I feel attracted to them, I feel connected with them, I feel a compatibility with them and I learned a long time ago that that’s who I’m supposed to pursue sexually. Like does that track like over time is our brain learning those patterns even though we think it’s with the person we’re most committed to at the moment?
Juli
Yeah, some of it Joe is meaning-making, you know, because in a new relationship, you’re going to get an excess of dopamine, you’re going to get an excess of adrenaline of hormones that say this is amazing, this is new. There’s a neurotransmitter called PEA. has a long name, but that’s a short name, that is similar to like an opiate where it’s like, wow, like this is amazing and you don’t want to eat. All you can do is think about that person.
And so when that’s happening in a dating relationship and it’s fostered by even sexual novelty, you start to make meaning out of that. I am really in love. Like I found my soulmate. This person is going to make me happy. We can even spiritualize it. This is a person God created for me to be with. It’s sort of that moment even that Adam had when he saw Eve, like, wow, this is bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. Like, this is life. So then when that fades in marriage, and it does, it lasts anywhere from three months to the top would be like a year and a half when that begins to fade. And then you experience that again with somebody else years later, or even decades later, you start to make the meaning of, wow, this is the person that is going to make me happy. This is my soulmate. I married the wrong person. And again, we can spiritualize that.
Juli
I’ve heard people say, God knows how lonely I am. He wants me to be happy. He’s brought this other person in my life. So it’s the combination of chemistry and then the meaning that we make of what we’re feeling.
Joe
Yeah, no, that makes way too much sense. I do think that discovery is something that some people can get very addicted to. Quite literally, like you’re saying, it’s like an opiate. And so we have to be cognizant of that and careful of that and submissive with that to the Lord that like it becomes an idol. Yeah.
Juli
And really pornography feeds that because pornography is always giving you that new sexual high. And so you again start to make meaning and believe that great sex is about getting that high instead of building the long-term relationship, the deep communication, the vulnerability, the honesty, the trust that doesn’t necessarily give you that high all the time, but gives you more of a sense of connectedness, attachment, well-being, some of those things.
Hannah
Yeah. So let’s circle back to the lie that we started with here. Cause I want to like push a little bit more into the truth that I think you’re starting to talk about Juli. The lie that we’re saying is like the best sex is compatible sex. And I’m just going to be honest. If I went to bed tonight and I woke up tomorrow and every day for the rest of my life, my husband and I were compatible with our sexuality. I don’t know. It sounds kind of nice.
Juli (24:08.898)
Yeah.
Hannah
So if we’re saying that’s the lie and you guys are both saying, compatibility is not always going to happen. That’s not expected, but wouldn’t that still be better if we could magically wish it? Is it that that’s actually a lie or that it’s just not reality?
Juli (24:26.146)
Yeah, I mean, I’ve got a look, Hannah, at why did God create male and female so different sexually?
Hannah
In every area.
Juli
Yeah, in every area, but let’s look at sexuality. Like, why is it that a man’s sexual prime is earlier in life than a woman’s? And why is it that, you know, he is able usually to respond visually to something immediate, and she needs time warming up and is more in tune to sensations?
Juli (24:55.192)
I mean, we can go on and on about the basic differences between men and women in general. And this stuff is documented in our brain wiring and our hormones and our anatomy. If the ideal sex would have been easy sex, it takes no effort to work on it.
Hannah
Constant compatibility.
Juli
Then God would have created us more compatible, but he sort of baked it into the cake that if you don’t learn to be unselfish and you don’t learn to reach to understand the other person, then you might be able to have a few months of great sex, but that’s gonna break down. Like you have to learn to be a great lover to have great sex in the long run, which is beautiful because he’s shaping our character, he’s teaching us how to love through the challenge of how do we navigate these differences.
Hannah
Yeah. I mean, I think that would be an encouragement for any couple who’s listening, who feels mismatched in any way, or who’s coming in with some of these like harder struggles in this area that it’s like, feels problematic, but it’s an invitation.
Juli
And the research would say that about 90 % of couples are not what we’d say is quote unquote compatible, even just in the area of how often they want to have sex. So for 90 % of couples, there’s some mismatch of how often they want to have sex, how they approach sex, if it’s like, I’m waiting for you to initiate versus, why don’t you always respond? Like, that conversation is having, being had in the vast majority of couples. So for those 10%, that’s great. But my guess would be either you’re going to go into a season where you’re not compatible, or maybe this is an area you’re super compatible, but there’s probably other areas of your marriage where you just are banging your head up against the wall, whether it’s money or parenting or faith or whatever it might be, there’s going to be incompatibility in your marriage. And that’s part of the gift.
Joe (27:05.8)
For that 10%, like if you’re not building the rest of your relationship on the things that God is talking about, that covenant relationship, when something in your life comes crashing down and you’re suddenly not compatible, maybe it’s even just a health issue that hits or something, like if your foundation is our sex is good, what’s gonna happen when life gets hard? Like, oh shoot, like, so even the quote unquote blessing of sexual compatibility in those 10 % of couples can be a curse if that’s still your foundation.
And so it still can’t be, well that’s how we express each, I mean, it is how you express love to each other, but it can’t be the thing, it has to be a thing. And anytime a good thing becomes a God thing, it becomes the main thing, it becomes a bad thing. And so like, ironically I feel like even sexual compatibility on a regular basis can be used by the enemy as a lie as to what the health of your relationship is.
Juli
And I would even say, you know, this kind of gets into another lie. I already sort of mentioned it, that sex is all about the activity. It’s about what’s happening between your bodies. Whereas it’s meant to be, yes, it’s happening between your bodies, but it’s a journey. It’s a journey of intimacy. And so for those couples who are in seasons of high compatibility, that’s great. But there’s probably an element to which they’re not fostering that deeper level of intimacy, of communication, of learning to understand each other and talk about sex and work through conflicts, and some of those deeper things that actually create that deeper sense of connection and intimacy in the long run.
Hannah
So if someone’s listening to this and like what you’re saying, Juli, like the activity of sex versus the journey of it, like you’re saying we need to be more focused on the journey than this individual activity. How would a couple know if they’re doing that? Like what would it look like if we were so focused on the activity in our marriage versus?
Juli (29:02.434)
Yeah, I mean, think one thing I would encourage a couple to do is think back maybe four or five years and ask yourself the question, do we know each other more intimately in our sexual relationship today than we did four or five years ago? And if the answer is no, you know, we’re pretty much doing the same thing. you know, like we’re kind of checking the box of we have sex once or twice or three times a week and we’re fine. Then I would say you’re focused on activity. You’re focused on how often we’re having sex. Is the sex decent? Are we still attracted to each other?
But if you can say, yes, like we’ve had some hard conversations. I understand my spouse’s desires and sensitivities more. I even understand their body more than I did before. I understand my body more than I did before. We’ve worked through and talked through some difficult things around our sexuality. And those difficult things can be, we’ve walked through a season of infidelity together, and grieve together. We’ve walked through a discovery of pornography. And I saw my spouse looking at porn and we had some hard conversations and we got some help. That’s intimacy. Or we walked through a health season together where we couldn’t have sex. And that really forced us to communicate about what sex means to us and how do we find ways of expressing ourselves when we can’t do what we used to do. Like those things that I’m describing right now mean you’re becoming more intimate. It’s not just about the activity and the behavior…
Hannah
The journey. Man, that’s awesome.
Juli
The journey. Yeah, and you know, I’ve been married almost 32 years You’re the pro. It’s like, okay, like, I think it takes time and years of marriage before.
Juli (30:55.618)
Like you start to see this. It’s not just about what’s happening in the moment. It’s about we’ve been through a lot of seasons together and we’ve grown together through those seasons.
Joe
I think that this super practically is something that at least a lot of men that I talk to, they crave this without knowing how to express that they crave this. And usually it’s some version of I don’t want sex just to be cheap. want like the euphemism is I want eye contact. And what they’re saying is I want to be able to look into my spouse’s eyes and feel connected and that we both wanted to like share this moment together and not just cool thanks for getting me to orgasm.
Hannah
Yeah, we like cross it off the list.
Joe (31:43.692)
Yeah and there is like a physical side where the guy’s like I mean thanks but like You know, like you’re not my human masturbation tool, like, you know, or whatever. And so there really is this desire. And I just think most men don’t know how to communicate: What I want for you is like, or with you as an intimate, soulful, meaningful, deep connection that then plays itself out in the bedroom versus like, can you just take care of me in the bedroom? And then we’ll go back to life.
Juli
Okay, so that sort of surprised me, Joe. Yeah, I mean, I’d love for you to talk more about that because I think most women assume that’s what we want, but the guys don’t want that. Like they’re sort of trained to think about sex more as a performance or more as just something you do, you check off a list. So help me understand why kind of the cultural line is that men don’t want or need that intimacy.
Joe
A, I don’t think men know how to express it and I think a lot of us don’t want to be vulnerable in communicating any of that. It feels, ironically, the other side of that lie is believed. And so if I in my head think that men just want to get off, but I feel like I want connection with my wife, well, who do I tell that to? Because I can’t tell it to my wife because that’s not how this is supposed to work, is the lie.
And I can’t tell the other men because apparently they’re all wired just to want the physical release. So I guess I’m stuck. And so then if the couple silently believes the cultural norms, then they only accidentally stumble on that connected time every once in a while because they won’t talk about it because the man doesn’t want to open up about it. But again, whether it’s been on one hand, you might see it on some kind of a blog or I’ll see it in my office or a conversation or just kind of in men’s circles or like, no, I would love to feel like my wife actually wants to be with me. Because what that ends up doing is it, let me say this really clearly before I say what I’m about to say. No one ever shoves their spouse into the arms of someone else. That is that person’s baggage if they’re gonna cheat or create infidelity.
Joe (34:00.406)
However, if I don’t think my wife ever wants to actually connect with me, then I’m gonna lose all steam to initiate. or be romantic because it just gets met with annoyance or it gets met with you just want me to get you off or whatever. Well, I don’t like that because it’s the opposite of connection. And so therefore, I don’t want to initiate. I don’t want to create that awkwardness. I’m trying not to treat you like an object. And so I don’t suddenly have any solid footing. And then if that creates a foothold with the enemy and suddenly I feel connected with someone else, it’s not that I, again, I’m speaking for men, not me, but like, it’s not that I suddenly don’t want to be with my wife. It’s I don’t know how to be with my wife. And this suddenly looks easier over here.
Now, if we couch that for a second, and then there often is, and my body would express that I quote unquote need, and you and I have talked about that before on a podcast before. It’s not a need, but it feels like a need to physically have release.
Juli
So that even gets confused with the guy of what is it that I really want. And I’ve actually seen that happen in the God, Sex, and Your Marriage groups, where couples will be going through God, Sex, and Your Marriage. And one of the pillars that we talk about of sexual intimacy is the journey of intimacy in that we talk about how this is not meant to be just an activity, but a journey of intimacy. And at first, a lot of times the guys will push against that. But then once they start to get it, they’re like, wow, like you just put words to a longing that I had that I didn’t even know that I had. I think what you’re saying is true. They’re not allowed to express that even with their wives.
Joe
So like, if we use “culturalisms”, like even something like a quickie can be either cheap or connected. So if the wife is like, fine, I’ll give you a quickie. Well, now the husband feels cheap and you’re almost mad at me that my body wants my wife. But if the wife can take that moment and go, I can spend a couple of minutes to help you out and connect with you briefly. Well, then it’s a game-changer.
Juli (36:06.838)
And I think the operative phrasers connect with.
Joe
100 %
Juli
And again, husbands often don’t know how to communicate that. It comes across as, just want your body. I just want the release. And not that, no, this is the way that I connect with you. This is the way that I want to join with you and be close. It’s not, I remember Doug Rosenau saying before, it’s not that you just want sex. You want sex with your wife’s body and with her and with her heart.
Juli (36:36.096)
And so it’s finding the words to help a husband express that so that there’s not this assumption that it’s just about the physical.
Hannah
Man, that lie turned into a whole-nother-conversation.
Juli
I know.
Hannah
I love it so much. So as we’re looking at some of these and we’re talking about these issues around sexuality and these lies, I think in all of these conversations, we’re kind of bringing up these different areas that bring up deeper, either pain or decisions around sexual sin. let’s talk about another lie around this idea of sexual sin.
Hannah (37:12.488)
And the lie is that sexual sin is worse than other sins. So can you guys help us understand why would that be a lie? Because I feel like I’ve heard that taught as a truth.
Juli
Yeah. Well, first of all, and I want you to jump in here, there’s some scripture that makes it feel like a truth. So in particular, like 1 Corinthians 6, where Paul says, you all their sins that you commit are outside the body, but sexual sin, you’re sinning against your body. Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. And so he brings this weight on sexual sin in saying that you’re going to experience consequences in your own body. And so it’s not to make light of sexual sin. The scripture actually leans into: take this very, very seriously. But I think when people then take that and have the conclusion that sexual sin is worse than any other sin, it’s almost like this is the unforgivable sin. This is a sin that makes me dirtier than any other person. And we do remember sexual sin more.
Sometimes I’ll use the example, if you lied to somebody 10 years ago, you probably don’t remember it. But if you were engaging with sexual sin with somebody 10 years ago, you probably remember it. Because even neurologically, it makes an imprint on your brain. It’s significant. There’s no such thing as casual sex.
Juli
But when we look at our standing before God, one of the things I noticed when we look at Proverbs and Solomon lists seven things God hates. Sex doesn’t show up on the list. It’s feet that shed innocent blood, which doesn’t surprise us. But it’s also things like haughty eyes or people that cause division and dissension. And so we have to take what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 6 in light of what all of scripture is teaching about sin.
So I don’t know, you’re the pastor, so you speak into this.
Joe (39:22.124)
Yeah, I think Paul is teaching about sex. So it sounds like he’s emphasizing sex, but it’s because he’s teaching about sex in relationships. He’s not talking about gluttony at that moment. He’s not talking about murder at that moment. He’s teaching about sex.
Hannah
Yeah, he’s not saying let’s compare which sin of all the sins.
Joe
I, in terms of it being shortly after the turn of the calendar usage, it’s 35 BC or whatever he wrote, I forget, pardon me, scholars out there, I know Paul wrote first Corinthians, but.
I think he’s leaning into God helping us understand that there’s psychology behind it. There’s this brain chemistry behind what we do sexually. That’s like, yeah, you’re sinning against your own body. You’re creating these neuropathways. You’re creating these habits. You’re creating these things inside of you that’s different than when you steal candy from the candy store. Like it is different.
Joe
I also think that one of the reasons we have to understand that sin is like the quote unquote same is because the answer is the same. Like, I love that Jesus interacts with cultural sins that seem more terrible than others the same way. He meets them with grace. He meets them with like, he actually basically says, like, I don’t condemn you, but go and sin no more. Like, that’s he says to the woman caught in adultery. You know, he’s like, I understand.
Joe (40:42.4)
I will forgive you and let’s move forward. Like that’s the same with every sin in the scripture. The reason I think that sin gets so lumped into like it’s all the same is because it does all separate us from God and even other relationships. And then the answer for it is still the work on the cross and Jesus’s resurrection. But what happens in between can feel more weighty.
You know, if I walk up to a guy on the street and I punch him. That’s probably sinful, I think. And if I walk up to that same guy and instead of punching him, I stab him, that’s also very sinful. And one of them was experienced worse than the other. If I sexually abuse someone, the long-term issues that are going to be created in trauma for both of us, especially the victim, that’s worse than I took an extra nut-rageous bar from the gas station. And so we start to create those hierarchies because of the pain that it causes or the ramifications of that. And I think there is some truth to that. But what does Jesus do with it? How does he interact with it? Well, the healing side of that is just as available through Christ, is just as available through walking with him as it would be through taking an extra Reese’s.
Hannah
So if people have been holding on to this idea that my sexual sin is worse than these other sins, how do you think that impacts how they’re interacting with God if they’ve believed that lie?
Joe
So if you’re a believer, I think you’re rebuilding walls of shame between you and the Lord. So if you read right after the death on the cross and the veil tears in two and we suddenly have full access to God because Jesus has paid for our sins, it’s almost like, cool, cool, cool, but let me rebuild one is what it feels like.
Juli (42:38.414)
I would say part of that too, Joe, is that often our sexual sin has living reminders. And that makes it more difficult to really receive forgiveness and walk in freedom. For example, you know, STIs, the research is showing that about 50 % of Americans will have an STI at some point in their life. And some of those had to come and go, but some of them you live with forever.
I remember talking to one guy. He shared with me that he had been sexually active before he got married, never told his wife, and as a result, he had syphilis. And his daughter was born blind because of that. And so here he has a living reminder: a grief of his sexual sin. For some, it’s the reminder of an abortion, or you bump into that person, you know, like randomly, that it’s like, oh man, that’s from my past.
Juli
We know that David experienced this, you know, like not only his sexual sin, but then the cover up with murdering Uriah. Like there were reminders generationally.
Help somebody who’s really dealing with that right now where their sexual sin in their past that they feel like they just can’t get away from because of the physical reminders that stay with them.
Joe
I think that when Jesus says the kingdom is near and Jesus says the kingdom is upon us, I don’t think he means perfection is right around the corner, do you want it? I think what Jesus is saying is do you want to begin walking in the ways of God? And so I do think some things scar us.
You know, I had ACL surgery 20-some years ago and my knee every once in while still hurts and I still have a scar on the front of my leg and I’m reminded, oh yeah, I did a dumb thing and tore up my knee. We’re gonna have those scars because of sin. This is why it pains God so much when we willingly give into it. You’re willingly giving yourself over to pain and to scarring and to the ramifications of that long term. And when you give yourself over to ones that have relational ramifications or like you said, these long term life examples, you’re creating a deficit, you’re creating a pain pathway, you’re creating an obstacle for you that you’re going to have to then live with on this side of heaven.
Joe
We will not be able to completely shed those things. Jesus is healing us, he’s sanctifying us, he’s transforming us, he’s making us more and more into his image. But we will not be fully sanctified until we’re in heaven. We won’t be able to escape the curses of this world until we’re in heaven. And so living in the ways of God is often like, how do I lean and trust in the hope of what’s to come today?
Because the beauty of the gospel is not that he forgave me for stealing a Reese’s when I was seven years old from Wade’s Market on Worcester Road West and Barbara in Ohio.
Juli
That’s very specific.
Joe
Yeah, I just came to meet.
Juli
Oh wow.
Joe
But he’s forgiving me for the ways in which I’ve hurt my wife. He’s forgiving me for the ways in which I’ve mistreated these other people. Like his work on the cross and his resurrection is covering this man’s causation of his daughter’s blindness.
Joe (46:12.736)
And so while it absolutely sucks to have to walk through the ramifications of our sin, if we trust in God and we trust in the scriptures and we trust in what he’s showing us and the work that he’s doing in our life, he’s covering all of that. Thankfully, we don’t have to stand before God one day and go, I’m pretty sure your cross covered 96 % of what I did, but then I really messed up that one time, didn’t I? He’s like, yeah, and that was just too much. Like, I’ll use that extreme example. I can’t believe that you caused your daughter to be blind. You thought I’d cover that? Are you kidding me?
That’s not how God works. Like God is offering us grace. He’s offering us His atonement and His propitiation to pay for each and every one of those instances. And so while it might be a memory of, can’t believe that my sin caused this, the more and more that we give ourselves over to the covenant relationship with God, it can also become a memory of the grace that He has afforded you and the life that He still decided to give to your daughter, or the life that He decided to give to your wife or whatever. I’m forgetting the exact passage off the top of my head, but those that have been forgiven a little will themselves forgive little, but those that have been forgiven much, they will forgive much because they get it, the depth of God’s grace that has met them in the midst of their darkest hours.
Juli
Yeah, amen. That’s the power of the gospel. Well, as we wrap up this conversation, we may have touched on a lie you’ve been believing or a pain point. And that’s purpose of having these conversations is to bring things into the light so that you can tear down those strongholds that keep you from an intimate relationship with God. And I just want you to know that you are not alone. Like there is a community of thousands of men and women around the world, who are on this journey with you. But most importantly, God is not afraid of your questions. And you don’t have to get your act together, clean up your sex life, do everything right in order to bring yourself to the Lord because He wants us just to come to Him broken.
Hannah (48:22.486)
I mean, a great starting place for anyone who’s listening would be to pick up one of Juli’s books like Surrendered Sexuality. It’s such a beautiful writing for so much of these truths, Juli. Or God’s Sex and Your Marriage, which you mentioned a few times throughout this conversation. Those are beautiful books that tackle a lot of these conversations and even give follow-up questions to give you space to process some of these things. But we would also love, as you do that, to make sure you’re sharing this episode. We’d love you to share it with a friend, start a conversation about it. Maybe you know Joe Caruso, pass it on to everyone.
Joe
Just drop the line, thought of you, and send them this.
Hannah
There you go. Exactly. That’s always a scary text to get. And we’d love to hear your thoughts just about this conversation or anything with Java with Juli. If you are a regular listener, we would love for you to leave a rating o review. Those are so fun to get Juli just as a ministry reading through and seeing people from all over the world engaging in this content.
Juli
Yeah, and we will drop links to all those resources in our show notes. And we’d always encourage you just to go to our website, authenticintimacy.com, where you can find lots of blogs, other podcast episodes like this, community to connect with. And again, thanks so much, Hannah and Joe for hanging out with me.
Hannah (49:35.105)
Anytime, Juli.
Joe
That’s awesome. Thank you.
Juli
We’ll see you next time for more Java with Juli.