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If you’re trying to heal after betrayal, you may be doing everything you were taught to do—and still feel stuck.
Sometimes we unintentionally sabotage our own healing—all in the name of love and forgiveness. Instead of feeling better, you end up feeling silenced, unsafe, and confused about why healing hasn’t happened.
Author and counselor Tammy Gustafson joins Juli to share four necessary phases of healing, and three common mistakes that actually shut it down. With clinical insight and biblical wisdom, this conversation will help you move forward with strength and hope.
Tammy
Because in order to heal from betrayal, you have to step into your strength. You have to find your voice. You have to set boundaries. If you shift your focus and you’re focusing on him and trying to take care of him or trying to help him, it actually shuts down the healing process.
Juli
Well, hey, friend, thanks so much for joining me for Java with Juli. I am Juli Slattery, and this podcast is an outreach of Authentic Intimacy, a ministry helping you make sense of God and sexuality. The voice you just heard is my guest today, Tammy Gustafson. She’s a licensed counselor who works primarily with spouses who have been betrayed in marriage. And if you personally have experienced betrayal, I want you to hear this first and foremost, you are not alone. And if you’re thinking, why is healing so hard or why am I still stuck or hurting? Then this conversation is really going to be helpful for you.
Now, maybe it’s not you, but you have a friend or a loved one who’s walking through betrayal right now. This would be a great episode for you to listen to and also to forward to them. When we talk about betrayal here, we’re not just talking about physical affairs. We’re also addressing things like pornography, emotional entanglements, secrecy, and broken agreements. And sometimes for Christians, the reality of those things are often minimized or even spiritualized in ways that can make healing and recovery even more difficult. And some of what you hear today might even sound counterintuitive, specifically issues of setting boundaries, focusing on your own needs and not rushing forgiveness. Now if you clicked on this episode because of the title, those are really the three big things we’re gonna be talking about. Setting boundaries, focusing on your own needs, and not rushing forgiveness. Our conversation today is based on Tammy’s new book called Broken to Brave, Your Courageous Act of Healing After Intimate Betrayal.
And Tammy is also hosting an online conference this month that’s a free conference around healing from betrayal. And I’ll tell you more about that at the end of my conversation with Tammy. So let’s jump into that. Here is Tammy Gustafson.
Juli
Well Tammy, I’m so thankful that you are here to have a conversation that I wish we didn’t have to have, but unfortunately is so needed. Just to help people navigate the terrain of how do you recover from a betrayal. So maybe we can start out by you just sharing some of your passion for that particular topic.
Tammy
Absolutely. Well, I’ve been a counselor for many years, but it was about six years into my counseling career that this became a very personal thing for me as well. So this is betrayal as part of my story. And man, there’s nothing like the shattering when you find out about it and the heartbreak and the very messy, long, painful struggle to heal, to recover. And I’m so thankful to say that I made it through, I healed. My marriage also made it through and healed. And so, but it was a long, messy process and we hung on by thread for a long time. But what I can say is that it is possible to heal from this. So I’m so grateful we’re having this conversation.
Juli (03:27.754)
And you mentioned that you were able to find healing and also your marriage was healed. And that’s not always the case, but I’m assuming by you even separating those two that it is possible to heal as an individual even when your marriage isn’t able to be reconciled.
Tammy
Yes, it is possible. And I think that’s a very important message because there’s always hope for healing. Most people, of course, maybe not of course, but most people want that healing within their marriage. But if your partner doesn’t do the work to heal, it is still possible to heal. It’s just a little bit different path.
Juli
Yeah, probably in the end it’s a different path, but maybe in the beginning not so much. I also am a clinician, psychologist, and I know when I’ve gone through really traumatic things, everything I know, everything I’ve learned sort of goes out the door. Like, it’s not like, I can navigate this for myself. What was that like for you to maybe have some of the tools to understand what you were walking through, but to be in the thick of it yourself?
Tammy
Well, I totally agree that when I went through this, did not matter at all that I was a therapist because it’s totally different. You know, one of the things that’s so confusing about betrayal is that when it shatters, it’s like the very foundation. Everything you thought was true suddenly feels like a lie. So you don’t know if what you’re doing is helping or hurting, if you’re moving forward or backwards.
And I would love to say that as a clinician that I would have had a leg up on that, but man, I did not. I was completely lost. I was completely lost.
Juli (05:01.762)
Yeah, and I think that also is important for people to hear that you’re supposed to fall apart when you hit something like this, that nobody has a corner on how to navigate this well, and you do need that support and giving yourself a lot of grace. When we even mention the topic of betrayal, I think it’s maybe helpful to define that.
Juli (05:28.802)
Does that mean your partner was sexually unfaithful? Does that mean pornography use? Like, what is the scope of how we define a betrayal?
Tammy
Yeah, I define betrayal as really when someone steps outside of the relationship agreement, outside of the marriage vows. And that will look different for different couples. So it is very personal, but it’s like, what was the relationship agreement that you guys had? And when that is crossed, then that is betrayal. So yes, a lot of times it will include pornography. It will definitely include sexually acting out affairs, but that can also include emotional affairs, you know, dating apps and those sort of things. And this can be same sex or opposite sex, the whole spectrum of this acting out.
And I think probably the more difficult ones or the ones that people struggle with the most are things like pornography, where there’s not another physical person. But I would say for me, that is absolutely betrayal. And so that and the emotional affairs as well. So we used to call it, I used to refer to it as sexual betrayal.
But it’s so much more than that. It’s so much more. So now I prefer the term intimate betrayal.
Juli
Yeah. And you know, I think when you said people wrestle with that, in some ways that even makes it more difficult because you can’t clearly say, you you slept with somebody else, therefore I have a right to feel betrayed. Maybe you caught your spouse looking at pornography or again, maybe there’s an emotional enmeshment that’s unhealthy and it’s more difficult to put your finger on what’s wrong with that and to confront it, I would imagine.
Tammy (07:08.396)
Yeah, it certainly can be. And I think for pornography in general, there’s kind of this society in the greater society acceptance of boys will be boys or all men do it. And those sort of messages are very damaging and very hard for the person who has been betrayed. But also it does a disservice to those who are viewing the pornography or that way also kind of normalizing but minimizing it and going, no, there is so much damage that is done there.
Juli
You had a description a few minutes ago of what it’s like to heal from betrayal and you use words like messy, long, know, painful, excruciating. What I love about the work that you’re doing, particularly your book, Broken to Brave, is you take this long, messy journey and start to put some structure on it. Whereas I think a lot of people, all they know is like they’re in the quagmire of pain and confusion and blurred boundaries and we’re not sure where we’re going, but you have sort of laid out a path of this is what healing is going to look like. Here’s some of the phases that you need to go through and each phase requires something different, which is so helpful. So maybe we can start by just even talking about the four phases that you’ve identified, maybe an overview of that to start with.
Tammy
Yeah, absolutely. I’ll give the 30,000 foot view of things. And I think what’s so helpful is like we said earlier, being a clinician did not help me, right?
When you’re in the middle of it, it’s so confusing and it’s so disorienting. But one of the beauties of being a clinician and having gone through this as clinicians, we see patterns. We see patterns in human behavior. We’ve seen patterns in healing. And so really the phases are just kind of peeling back that curtain of going, no there are patterns. There is actually a very clear path. Now it is a long, windy, and sometimes you circle back, sometimes it’s not linear, but there’s definitely a path. And so the four phases that I really identified, the first one is reveal. And that is when the truth is starting to come out. There has been a discovery, maybe you walked in on your partner viewing porn or there was a text or something, but that is that shock. That’s that initial shattering. During that phase, you were trying to get the truth. You’re trying to get the whole truth, not only about what your spouse has done or your partner has done, but also the reality.
Tammy
Getting the truth is getting your reality of what your marriage has actually been like, not just the side of it you thought that you were experiencing. And then when moving from phase one into phase two, that transition happens when you either get the full truth, or when it becomes clear that your spouse will not give you the full truth. And that unfortunately has to become the foundation that you take your next step on.
And then that phase two, that is that I call it rumble. And I think of it like a rumble strip where you cross that line and it’s intolerable and it’s, it’s so hard and you just, want to get out of that. It’s so uncomfortable. This is a long, messy middle process where you’re not sure if your partner or your spouse is going to do the work to heal. You’re not sure if you want to stay or go. You’re grieving.
Tammy
You’re trying to process the reality and the heartbreak and you’re dealing with all the really intense emotions during that time. And, and hopefully you’re getting help and you’re stepping into your strength and you’re finding your voice, but it’s a lot. Oh, it’s so painful. It’s so excruciating. And then phase three happens when kind of organically it has become clear the direction that your marriage is going.
And there I kind of break it into three paths. And one path is kind of the redemption path where there’s healing and you guys are healing together. And then there’s the divorce path. And we’re pretty familiar with both of those paths. But then there’s also this third path, what I call the roommate path. And that is where the one who did the betraying is not doing great work, but the one who was betrayed doesn’t want to leave.
Tammy (11:27.576)
And there’s a lot of really valid good reasons why that may be. A lot of times it’s finances, not having the ability, the means to support yourself, or it might be kids, those are the top two. And I think this is a group of people that gets overlooked the most, and it’s the people that need some extra support.
Juli
Yeah.
Tammy (11:54.494)
And then finally, phase four is where everybody, those who have been betrayed kind of come back together. And this is kind of an organic shift where the crisis has subsided. whether their marriage has made it or not, but they get to that place of like, I have got to focus on me and I’ve got to focus on me picking up the pieces and healing and hopefully stepping into that place where they get to a point where they’re focused on creating a life that they are excited to live.
So it’s about moving forward in that last phase. Like what does the new normal look like?
Juli
Yeah, but there’s so much that you said there that I want to pick up on, but we’ll do it sequentially. I was kind of holding back. Like I just have so many questions to dig in and we’ll get there. I want to start with that first phase of reveal. In some ways, the way you described it, somebody might think, well, I could do that phase in one day because my spouse sat down with me, confessed. I asked my questions about what was going on. So we’re done with the reveal stage. Now we’re into the rumble.
But knowing a little bit more about what you mean by that, this is not a one-day phase. Can you describe how long this usually is and what it usually involves in terms of what you need to be doing in that stage?
Tammy
Yeah, I wish it was a one day stage, but you’re right. It’s definitely not. The important thing here is that if there is going to be healing for the relationship and really if there’s going to be healing for the one who did the betraying, it has to be the full truth. And that is never a one day process. In the industry, we recommend something called a full disclosure. And that is where the person who did the betraying goes back and says everything, shares everything that they have been hiding, that they would have been withholding. And in this realm, it’s all the sexual acting out. And the reason why that’s needed is that as long as there are secrets being withheld, as long as the truth is not spoken, there is no foundation for trust to be rebuilt.
There is no foundation for safety. And as long as they are holding all that in, that shame will continue to keep them captive. And so they have got to get all that out. There’s a lot of counterintuitive things about this healing process, but one of them is that the most loving thing that the one who did the betraying could do is to give all the truth. And a lot of times that needs to be done with the help of a therapist or a specialized coach, because there’s a lot of usually lying and denying and minimizing that goes on. So usually the one who did the betraying needs some really solid help and guidance to get all of that out.
Juli
Yeah, and I would guess that it might not even be helpful just for somebody to dump all that on their spouse and be like, let me get it over with. Let me confess everything I’ve done in secret for the last 10 years. Like I’ve heard stories and testimonies of when that’s not guided by some outside help and some counseling, it’s just overwhelming and too traumatizing for the person who’s betrayed to even be able to digest it.
I don’t know, mean would you say it’s ideal to have just a sit down with the two of them and the one person just disclose every single thing all at once?
Tammy
I wouldn’t say it’s ideal, no. But that’s kind of how our process went. I was that you’re gonna sit down now and tell me everything.
Juli
Yeah.
Tammy
The problem is is that it’s usually not the full truth. And so then we get something called like a drip disclosure, where you get some information, and then a little bit later, you get a little bit more, and a little bit later, you get a little bit more. The downside of that is that it keeps the betrayed partner, it keeps man… It’s like death by a thousand cuts and it keeps their nervous system constantly being triggered into this massive fight or flight mode.
Juli
Right.
Tammy
Now the one thing I would say though is that for me, because that’s how I did it, eventually we got a counselor on board and they helped, but I found my strength in that. That is a bonus of that that I’m grateful for because I definitely found my voice and my strength in that of like, no, we will do this and I want the truth, and it’s messy and the whole thing is traumatic. But let me tell you this, one of the benefits through all this that I’ve learned is that man, at a deep, deep level, you can heal from trauma. So step into your power, step into your agency. You ask for what you want and need, but ideally, it is much a smoother process when you have somebody on board.
Juli (16:39.468)
Yeah, step into the pain, right? So would you say that in your situation, like the reveal was just one day or is there more to it in terms of processing that?
Tammy
Oh gosh, was months, it felt like months. Maybe it was a lot of weeks, I don’t know, but it felt like months and it was absolutely excruciating. It really was.
Juli
You give some really practical advice on boundaries in that stage. You talk about gaslighting and some things that when you’re in that stage of reveal, and I would probably say even the second phase of rumble that are really important to keep yourself safe. Can you describe some of what your recommendations are and why those are so important?
Tammy
Yeah, I think, you you mentioned gaslighting and that happens a lot in the beginning. And gaslighting is really the goal is for the one who did the betraying, the goal, whether they realize it or not, whether this is conscious or not, it’s like, I want to take the focus off me and I want to shift it onto you. And if I can shift it and now we’re talking about something you did wrong, then I’m kind of off the hook, right?
And it keeps the betrayed partner in this crazy making cycle of like, maybe it is my fault, which by the way, it’s never the fault of the betrayed partner, never the fault. But it keeps that person in this place of like, maybe I did do something like, gosh, I, mmm. And this often takes help from some really solid people in your life to be like, hey, that’s gaslighting. Like, hey, did you see how he turned? Did he blame you?
Tammy (18:20.994)
Did you see how he or she focused this on you and was attacking you or was minimizing or blaming you. And so for that, it’s really important to be able to step back and be able to go, wait, wait a second. Okay, that’s what’s going on. Like this is not mine. This is yours. You need to go get help. And then taking really good care of yourself. But that boundary piece, man, I mean, I think we intuitively know that boundaries need to happen. Although a lot of us come into boundaries with a lot of baggage, like, they’re mean or they’re punishing or they’re wrong. But the reality is, is boundaries are incredibly important for healing after betrayal. I have kind of a different way of approaching boundaries, but ultimately kind of bottom line, the question I want betrayed partners to ask themselves is, what do I need to feel safe right now? Because safety has been shattered. So what do I need to feel safe? And whatever that is, if you can verbalize that, that’s kind of the core of where boundaries come from.
Juli
Yeah, in some ways, Tammy, that is so counterintuitive, I would say particularly for Christian marriages, because you’re hearing over and over and over again, how do you care for your spouse? How do you care about their needs? You know, how do you learn to be unselfish in marriage? And when a betrayal happens, you can’t just shut that off. There’s a part of you that wonders, well, what about my spouse? Are they going to be okay? I need to check in with them even though I’m mad and hurt, I still care about them.
So how do you untangle all that when you’ve been maybe working for decades to become one and to become unselfish to all of sudden now be like, okay, for us to heal and for me to heal, I actually have to stop thinking about how my partner feels.
Tammy (20:11.574)
Yeah, man, that’s so tricky and it’s hard and I get it. I’m a believer as well. In fact, my husband was a pastor when life blew up. So I get that at a very deep core level. And what I can say now is I counsel and coach people of all walks of life, Christians, non-Christians all around the world. And what I can say is that Christians actually have the hardest time healing.
Juli
Okay, tell me about this.
Tammy
The reason is it’s because of all those messages that you just alluded to. It’s the decades or the lifetime or the books or what it means to be a godly Christian wife or have a godly Christian marriage. And there’s a lot of those messages, particularly if the woman is one who has been betrayed, like you just said, you need to put others first. You just need to submit. You just need to pray. Don’t be angry, gentle, all of that.
And this is part of what is so counterintuitive, especially for Christians when they’re healing. There’s an unburying process that I have to do with particularly Christian women to get them to the point where they can start to heal. Because in order to heal from betrayal, you have to step into your strength. You have to find your voice. You have to set boundaries. If you shift your focus and you’re focusing on him and trying to take care of him or trying to help him, it actually shuts down the healing process.
It shuts down your healing process because you’re no longer focused on the wounds and the trauma that you just experienced, but it also shuts down his process. The last thing he needs in that moment is to kind of be coddled and have that focus on him. What he needs to do to heal is he needs to take ownership. He needs to look at why he did what he did. He needs to realize the pain that is inflicted on his wife, in this case, gender roles.
Tammy (22:06.114)
But the pain that it’s inflicted on his wife and learn to empathize with her and learn to be able to hold space for her sadness and her anger, his focus needs to shift onto her and the damage she has caused. And when that happens, all ships rise. But if she focuses on him and he focuses on him, all healing stops.
Juli
Wow, that’s really profound. And I think it’s important to tease out when you’re doing this work with Christians, it’s not that you’re asking them to walk away from Scripture, you’re asking them to embody and be empowered in a different way that is very consistent with Scripture. Like Jesus didn’t just go around and be manipulated, and like he had boundaries. He interacted very differently with different people depending on their level of trustworthiness.
Tammy
Well, and I think I totally agree with that. And God is angry in the Bible a lot. When boundaries are crossed, when people are wronged, He gets angry. And we shy away from that so much. And there’s this expectation that kind of the only acceptable emotion for men is anger. And like the one unacceptable emotion for women is anger. We just have to be aware of the messages that we are receiving because sometimes our cultural Christianity or our cultural ways of acting are different than scriptural, right?
Juli (23:44.706)
Hey friend, this is Juli and I just wanted to say thank you for the ways that many of you gave as we ended the year 2025. We asked for you to help us and you certainly did. And because of the gifts that you gave us in year end, we are able to start 2026 off with vision and with the funds that we need to continue this podcast and the ministry at Authentic Intimacy. So again, just want to say thank you to you and most of all, thank you to the Lord for providing for this ministry.
Juli
I read in your book where you’re like, hey, this phase one is not the time for you to be thinking about forgiveness. This is not the time for you to be thinking about whether or not your marriage is going to be reconciled. You’re not saying those are never going to be addressed, but why is it important to have the self-discipline not to go down those roads in the early phases?
Tammy
Well, particularly focusing on forgiveness. And I know this makes a lot of people uncomfortable, but focusing on forgiveness too early is one of the fastest ways to shut down the healing process. And that was true for my story as well. The first time I heard a little bit about what my husband had done, he cried, I cried, he said he was sorry, he would never do it again. I forgave him and we went on. I mean, that wasn’t even a one day. We tried to do that in one night and I was like, okay, I forgave him.
Juli
Yeah. Right.
Tammy
It was a bad night.
Juli
A long night.
Tammy
Long night, yeah. But I was like, okay, I forgave him. We’ll just move on. We’ll just move on and everything’s going to be okay. The problem was it wasn’t. I tried. And for a year, we kind of went on that way. But it was always a low grade simmering in the background. And that’s because it hadn’t healed. I didn’t even know the tip of the iceberg of the truth, kind of back to that full disclosure thing.
Tammy (25:37.016)
But I so desperately just wanted to be okay. I so desperately wanted for us not have to feel all of this pain and to go all through the struggle and the implications of what this could mean in our marriage. And that’s the reality is that forgiveness really comes certainly after you know what you are looking to forgive, but it really comes on the other side of anger. It comes on the other side of sadness. It comes on the other side of healing. And I think there’s a lot of pressure and expectation within Christian circles to forgive immediately. And if you don’t, you are bad, you are holding grudges, God is going to be angry at you, and He’s not going to forgive you. And I think what a harsh view of God we have. And then the reality is all of that pressure, both external and also internal, being like, I just got to forgive now and I just got to move on and we got to resolve this. It just doesn’t work.
There is a way to get through, there is a way to heal like deep Healing like full healing that is possible. But you’ve got to allow yourself and if you want your marriage to make it you have to allow your marriage to go through that process. And what I can tell you is I see this time and time again and this was my personal experience as well, The Holy Spirit will tell you he will prompt you when it’s time to forgive. And you can trust that.
Juli
Yeah.
Tammy
And then and only then is it time to lean into that. Otherwise it’ll shut it down. And the last thing you want to do is if you try to shut it down, it’s just going to prolong it and it’s going to come up later for healing. And that’s the last thing I would want for anybody.
Juli (27:20.48)
Yeah, and so it’s sort of like premature forgiveness, like you don’t even really have a sense of what you’re forgiving. And I wonder, as you shared your story, what was it that prompted you like a year later to go back and open up the wound when you thought, okay, we’ve already settled this?
Tammy
Well, for me, honestly, I was starting my counseling practice, like a private practice, and I was getting connected with people in the past. And one of the people I was getting connected with was somebody who specialized in this. And I saw he had a book out and I was like, huh, maybe that would help. Maybe that would help us kind of wrap things up. And so I bought a book for me and for my husband. We’re going to read one chapter a week and we’re just going to nail this out.
And of course, the first week, the first chapter, everything really blew up. And that’s when we actually started the healing process.
Juli
Yeah, was your husband, if you don’t mind me asking, was he upset? Like, was he hoping that all this was just sort of brushed under the rug, we can move on? Or was there a part of him that was like, yeah, I feel like we have more to go too?
Tammy
That’s a great question. I haven’t asked him that direct question, but he always hated what he was doing, but he didn’t know how to get out of it. So I don’t know then how he felt, but certainly I know that he is grateful now that the full healing process, we went through the full healing process.
Juli (28:45.57)
Yeah, it’s kind of like when you’re going to the dentist and you don’t want them to find a cavity but in the long run you’re really glad they found it and you have to go through the the awful process of getting it fixed. But none of us wants that and I love what you said about your husband just I think that’s true of a lot of people, men and women who are unfaithful. They don’t like what they’re doing but they don’t know how to get out and they feel trapped they feel like they’re living double lives they don’t know how to be transparent.
I guess that sort of moves us to some of these other phases, particularly phase two and three, of how do you discern over the years or months that you’re working through these phases, whether you have a spouse who is really repentant and wanting to do the hard work of recovery, and when you have a spouse who’s just kind of checking the boxes because that’s what they’re supposed to be doing.
Tammy
Yeah, that’s the big question. First of all, I would say that is not how sorry someone is or how much they want to change that makes a difference. It’s whether or not they actually do the work to change.
Juli
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, intuitively, would say if someone’s genuinely sorry and they really want to fix it, then they’ll do the work. But those two don’t always go in stride?
Tammy
They don’t.
Juli
Okay.
Tammy
They don’t. And I think that’s a really important distinction because people will say, I’m sorry. And they truly will mean it. But I’m sorry, or I hate that I’m doing this to you, or I want to change. Words are cheap. Even a sincere apology and whatnot. Like after betrayal, the only thing that matters is whether or not they actually do the work.
Juli (30:35.618)
Yeah, and what is the work?
Tammy
Yeah, that’s a great question. The first of all is they have to stop acting out. But that is not the finish line. That’s the starting line. Like stopping breaking the marriage vows, really the relationship agreement that has to be first and foremost, because if there are repeated relapses, it is so, so damaging to the one who is being betrayed when they have those repeated and it puts them in this state of they’re, they can never heal.
They can never fully, their nervous system can never calm. And so first and foremost, the work is they have to stop. They have to break with the acting out. But the other part they also have to break with is they have to break of lying because there is no secret sexual life. There is no sexual acting out without lying. Those two things go hand in hand and they have to break on both. And in the long run, when I talk to betrayed partners who have been in this for a long time, there’s been multiple relapses. They say the thing that actually ended the marriage at the very end was at the lying. And so both of those things are very, very important. But what that looks like after beyond just stopping the acting out, because that’s like the starting line, you know, that’s ground zero, but it can’t stop there.
Tammy
And there is a whole character side of things. There’s the deeper level of healing that has to happen or the deeper level of work that has to happen. And this is for the one who did the betraying. They need to do deep character work to become the person that they want to be. They have to go back and dig deep and understand why, why they did what they did. And it’s not that my boss yelled at me.
Tammy (32:26.862)
It’s not that you just had a baby and so you weren’t having enough sex with me. That’s never the answer. It is this stuff is almost always you can trace it back to childhood where there were unmet needs there, not necessarily sexual trauma. But a lot of times what happens is that maybe there was an environment where their emotions weren’t really understood or validated. And so there comes this point where they are just trying to numb out. I have all these big emotions. I don’t know what to do with them. They feel bad, and I want to numb out. And somewhere along the lines, a lot of times what happens is that they discover that sex will help numb out, sex, pornography, whatever the case may be. Over time, what can happen is if they go, Ooh, I’m not feeling good. I’m not feeling good. I want this to go away. And then if they go to pornography and it numbs them out for a little while and then the shame comes in and then it just doubles down. But over time, if this behavior gets paired enough with these emotions, like now you’re rewiring your brain. Now you’re rewiring your brain that if I feel something and I don’t know what to do with it and I just, don’t, I feel good. want to escape it. Then I’m going to go to some version of sexual acting out. These patterns are usually developed long before their spouse comes into the scene. And that’s part of why I tell betrayed partners, this is never ever your fault. It’s never your fault.
Juli
Yes.
Juli (33:51.756)
And then a thread of that when you talk about the honesty and not lying is what do we do with shame? And a lot of us grew up learning the bad parts of me are not acceptable and so I have to learn to hide those bad things. And that becomes a pattern of I’m not gonna tell somebody the things that I feel bad about or the things I’ve done wrong. So when you’re like the first step is really stop acting out, stop lying, actually you can’t stop acting out or stop lying until you actually get to some of those deep things. Like, I would guess you can do it for a time, but if those patterns are so deeply wired, then you have to get to those deeper issues in order to see true behavior change.
Tammy
Absolutely. And this is also why the messages that churches often give of you need to pray, you need to read the Bible more, you need to, you know, be in an accountability group. They don’t work because there’s so much deeper psychological stuff that needs to be healed. And so, yes, part of it, you’re right. They can probably white knuckle it for a while and stop the behaviors. But this is why that deeper work has to happen.
And so the deeper work is finding out the why, but it’s also understanding your triggers. It’s also empathizing with the one that you hurt. It’s learning, especially because a lot of this root is trying to run away from negative emotions. It is especially important that they turn in and lean in and see all of the pain that they have caused and allow that to grow them up, allow them to step in and create new patterns, but to empathize, to own what they did without minimizing, without denying it, without blame shifting it and having humility and kindness. And that’s where you start to see the change. What you’re looking for, betrayed partners, what you’re looking for is not simply stopping the acting out, but how does your spouse respond when you express your anger or your hurt or your sadness, your deep, very intense emotions, because that’s reality?
Tammy (35:58.446)
How do they respond? Do they respond with kindness? Can they move out of armoring up and self-protecting and kind of fighting against the one that they hurt? Can they start to learn how to put that down and instead lean in and be present and deal with all those emotions that they’re gonna have to feel and sit with while they are providing space for the one that they hurt? So it’s deep work, but that has to be done.
Juli
Yeah, and so what I hear you saying is it’s not even a list of meet with your counselor once a week and go to this sexual integrity ministry group. Like those are the vehicles through which somebody can do this deeper work. But this is not a checklist. This is actually something that is relationally discerned over time.
Tammy
Exactly. And that’s honestly where it gets really confusing for betrayed partners because they can be like, boy, he is checking all those boxes. He is going to counseling. He is doing that. But it just doesn’t feel like… He’s still really angry at me. He still won’t answer any of my questions unless I ask the exact right one. That’s where betrayed partners at a heart level can really feel if that deeper work is being done. So I’m so glad you brought up that.
Juli
Yeah, and I’ve heard people say that where they’re like, I guess we should be fine because, you know, we’ve been in recovery now for two years and they meet with their group, you know, every week and I don’t see any evidence of pornography use or acting out, but I just don’t feel safe. I don’t feel like I can trust him or her. I’m not there. And so those are more important barometers of the health of the marriage than the actual activities that you all are doing.
Okay, so a few more questions as we wrap up. A lot of people ask the question about sex and about through this process, should you just say, we’re not having sex, no physical contact, do you work into a sexual relationship? I know some couples who continue having sex even through this. So what advice do you have in terms of how to navigate that?
Tammy (38:08.91)
It is up to the betrayed partner. It is 100 % up to the betrayed partner. All of the 50-50 stuff, healing after betrayal is not a 50-50 deal, okay? Safety at the very core has been shattered, and it’s been shattered in the realm of sexuality, which is so vulnerable and so intimate. A lot of times before betrayal, there will be this like, oh, it’s been three days, oh.
I need to like, we need to make sure, you know, and there’s a lot of pressure of like, I need to have sex with him so he’s not tempted or he doesn’t act out. All of that now. Now for the betrayed partner, this is your body. This is your body. And maybe for the first time in your life, you get to make the call about what you want with your body and your sexuality. And especially after he shattered your marriage vow, you now get to make a complete call on what happens with your body and whether or not you feel safe to engage in sex or not. There’s no right or wrong, like, you’re right. Some people have continued to have sex. Some people stop having sex and don’t have sex again for years. That’s also very normal as they rebuild in this process if they stay together. But if you do engage in sex, the triggers are really strong. They’re really strong.
Tammy
That’s like a whole other conversation. I just want to validate like you again, your safety matters, betrayed partners, your safety matters. You get to say yes or no. And you also get to say, Hey, I’m really triggered right now. We need to stop. That’s also okay.
Juli
Well, I mean I would say, you know, first of all, when you said this might be the first time that you’ve been able to sort of have a voice, that shouldn’t be the case. Like in marriage, regardless of a betrayal, you know, we’ve talked about this on this podcast before, but this is not a you owe me this kind of thing. That’s an unhealthy dynamic for any marriage. But I would say it’s probably also important to be asking yourself as a betrayed partner, why do I want to have sex? Is it some self-conscious need like I want to fix the marriage through sex or still feeling that guilt or pressure? So I think it’s important to ask why. Why do I not want to have sex and why do I want to have it? But I don’t know what your thoughts are on that.
Tammy
I do. I just want to give a lot of grace and compassion to betrayed partners because again, this area of sexuality, is so complicated and especially after betrayal. And it’s very common for some betrayed partners to actually want to have a lot more sex afterwards, feeling like, okay, if I can just be more sexy or maybe just do those positions that he wanted to like that, maybe I can save this. Maybe I can keep the marriage from shattering, maybe I can hold it together. And so in those times, like we can look back and go, that wasn’t so healthy of a decision on my part, but in the moment, totally understandable. There’s no shame and there’s no judgment with that.
So I just want to catch betrayed partners with that of like, do the best you can to be really gentle with yourself as you navigate this really confusing process.
Juli
Yeah, good word. What you’re describing, and I know you even write about this a little bit in your book, there’s a lot of power dynamics at play here. And you write a little bit about how a betrayal is actually a power imbalance. And I’d love for you to describe that. And then I’d also like you to talk about, is there a healthy, unhealthy power imbalance shift where let’s say, you know, you and your husband have navigated healing, you’ve been at this five or ten years and there’s still a sense of the betrayed partner sort of lording it over the one who has betrayed where it’s now a different kind of unhealthy power imbalance.
Tammy (42:15.822)
Yeah, I’m so glad you brought this up because this is a very dicey topic, especially in Christian circles. Yes, betrayal at its core is an imbalance of power, because power, how I define it, is the ability to influence or to resist influence. So for the one who’s doing the betraying by withholding it, by not telling your spouse what you’re doing, you’re doing that so she doesn’t know.
Juli
Yeah.
Tammy (42:45.27)
So she doesn’t tell you to stop, so she doesn’t quote unquote make you stop, right? Or he, she, whoever’s doing the betraying. And so by that very secret, the one who is doing the betraying and keeping the secrets or just doing the acting out behavior, even if she knows, that person has the power because they are resisting influence, right? And so a lot of times what happens is when life blows up and the truth starts to come out, then both partners think that they’re at a balance of power when they’re not. The betrayed partner has a serious lack of power. And so as this process comes and as I tell betrayed partners, you need to, you need to step into your power. You need to find your voice. You need to set boundaries. All of that is stepping into power, but we’re not talking about it’s here and now she’s stepping into power and she’s way up here. We’re talking about that’s even just to balance the scales, right?
So a lot of times what I hear from men who are not particularly doing good work is that they start to get really uncomfortable with this supposed her taking the power, her taking the power and calling the shots and she’s doing all this and they start to get really uncomfortable with that. We have to understand you didn’t come at an equal playing field.
And so she does need to step into her power, but that doesn’t mean she’s necessarily lording anything over any, but she needs to step in to heal. And so there will feel for both of them for a while, like there is an imbalance of power, especially if she is healing well and they are healing well. But that is healthy and it has to happen. It has to happen if the marriage is going to recalibrate and get healthy. And over time, betrayed partners usually do not want, do not like this power differential either. Like there is a desire for rest and for peace, right? And if the marriage is going to heal for there to be the share bond and responsibility and power, but that does take time. And if you’re five or 10 years into healing and the betrayed partner still feels like, this is like, well, either one of them really, if he is doing good work, because he could be 10 years in and not doing good work, right?
Tammy (45:04.43)
But if he is doing good work and he’s healing and she’s leaning into her healing and there still feels like at that point where there’s safety in the relationship, but there’s some things that are a little off balance, then they can get help with that. Then they can talk about it or they can bring somebody in at that point who can help them kind of unpack that a little bit because you can get stuck in habits and behaviors at times. But that is usually not the case. Usually when we’re talking about the imbalance of power, it’s usually still this process of healing.
Juli
Yeah, thank you for that clarification. And I know we’ve got a wrap up, but I did want to ask you just one more question that you sort of teased at the very beginning when you talked about the resolution for relationships about some will have restoration, some will not be able to put the marriage back together and they’ll divorce. And then you said you really have a heart for those who are stuck in a roommate situation because you mentioned that.
I’d love for you just to say a little bit about that for people that might be in that situation.
Tammy
Yeah, again, just kind of recapping with that, that is when the one who did the betraying is doing some work enough to keep the betrayed partner in, but is really not diving deep into that deep character work that we’re talking about. And so there’s still not that safety. I think you described it well. You know, there’s still not that safety. There’s still that she may not even necessarily have all the information and there’s still just not that rest.
Tammy (46:39.544)
But she is staying for whatever reason or he, whoever’s the betrayed partner is sustained for whatever reason. And again, zero shame and judgment. Have a lot of grace for yourself, have a lot of compassion for yourself. And for those who are, for instance, for my clients who come in and they’re like, he is not doing the work. Then I would say healthy detachments, having an emotional buffer so you’re not continuously hurt by him.
Juli
Yeah.
Tammy
And you shifting your focus from him and the relationship onto your healing and shifting like you focusing on him meeting your needs to going, how can I meet my needs myself? That has to happen if you’re going to be able to stay and thrive long-term. There is a way to stay and thrive. But a lot of times what happens if that really intentional shift doesn’t happen and you push hard into creating a life for yourself and goodness in life, what happens is that the betrayed partner’s lights will go out. They will dim or they will go out. And it’ll be this like, well, I guess this is just what life is. And I guess I’ll just stay and I don’t really matter, but I’m just gonna, I’m gonna do my best for my kids. And I think the most tragic thing that could happen in this entire scenario is for betrayed partners lights to go to dim and go out and they’re just like.
Tammy
I’m just like, you’ve got one life to live. You’ve got one life to live. You are important and valuable. So it’s a more tricky path of healing, but you can do it. It is.
Juli (48:21.346)
Yeah, and I think the key that you said there is some healthy emotional detachment, which means that there are a lot of marriage conferences and marriage books that you’re going to have to sort through because you’re not in a situation where you can work towards intimacy. Actually, a healthy relationship means showing just basic kindness and honor to one another, but not working towards emotional connection.
That is contrary to a lot of the advice that you’re hearing because a lot of the advice you hear on marriage is about how to resolve conflict, how do we understand each other emotionally, how do we build intimacy, and you’re in a situation where that’s really not possible. Yeah.
Tammy
Well put.
Juli
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to unpack all that. I know we could spend another hour just getting into the details of this, but we’re going to recommend your book for people to follow up with. And I’m just thankful for the work that you’re doing.
Tammy
Well, thank you so much for having me and for this conversation. I appreciate it.
Juli (49:34.542)
Well friend I want to say it again: healing after betrayal is possible but it’s also messy and you’re not gonna heal by being smaller or quieter or quicker to forgive. You’re gonna heal by really telling the truth and tending to your own restoration. If you have a friend or a loved one who’s walking through betrayal, will you share this conversation with them?
Tammy’s new book is called Broken to Brave, Your Courageous Act of Healing After Intimate Betrayal and it releases on January 27th, but you can pre-order it today. And I mentioned in the open that Tammy has created the Betrayal Healing Conference and this is a five-day free online event that’s designed to help women who’ve experienced sexual betrayal. That’s happening next week, January 26th through the 30th and you’ll hear from more than 35 speakers and experts, many of whom you’ve heard here before on Java with Juli. You can find links to all of this and a few other resources to help you navigate this journey, including some Q &A videos that I’ve made in our show notes. And you can stop by our website at Authenticintimacy.com as well. Thanks for listening, and I look forward to having coffee with you next time for more Java with Juli.